Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]

[Aaron Wellendorf]

Fellow wrenches,

I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?

Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.

"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"

Thank you,

Aaron Wellendorf


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[Aaron Wellendorf]

Fellow wrenches,

I am resending this as it did not seem to post.

I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?

Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.

"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"

Thank you,

Aaron Wellendorf


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[Brian Wiley]

Hi Aaron,

I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.

This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.

Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.

Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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[Joe Felker]

Aaron,
Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
engage not less than two threads

Joe

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

Joe Felker

Engineering Manager
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
The Solar Center


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[Aaron Wellendorf]

Joe,

The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."

The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.

Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.

Aaron Wellendorf

Joe Felker wrote:
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads


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[Mike Bernhard]

<x-flowed>

The 2008 code in ART 250.8 effectively addresses this issue. 250.8
Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment (A) Permitted Methods (5)
Machine screw type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are
secured with a nut. (6) Thread forming machine screws that engage not less
than two threads in the enclosure.
Yes, this is new. Yes it has been a generally accepted standard for some
time.
At full Spectrum Solar we have virtually no issues with inspectors.
We actively engage them in discussion BEFORE we start a system in their
jurisdiction and can usually work out any discrepencies between what they
think and what we think.
Mike Bernhard
Master Electrician
Full Spectrum Solar

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Wellendorf" <Aaron at stellarenergy.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Joe,
The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."
The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.
Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.
Aaron Wellendorf
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads
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</x-flowed>

[Mike Bernhard]

<x-flowed>

The 2008 code in ART 250.8 effectively addresses this issue. 250.8
Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment (A) Permitted Methods (5)
Machine screw type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are
secured with a nut. (6) Thread forming machine screws that engage not less
than two threads in the enclosure.
Yes, this is new. Yes it has been a generally accepted standard for some
time.
At full Spectrum Solar we have virtually no issues with inspectors.
We actively engage them in discussion BEFORE we start a system in their
jurisdiction and can usually work out any discrepencies between what they
think and what we think.
Mike Bernhard
Master Electrician
Full Spectrum Solar

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Wellendorf" <Aaron at stellarenergy.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Joe,
The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."
The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.
Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.
Aaron Wellendorf
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads
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</x-flowed>

[Joe Felker]

Look in the 2008 code. That's what I quoted from...

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Joe,
The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."
The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.
Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.
Aaron Wellendorf
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads

Joe Felker

Engineering Manager
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
The Solar Center


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[Sky Sims]

Personally I prefer to use bolts with star washers for the grounding
points. Our rack is secured at four points with bolts and star washers
to each panel. The rack becomes the ground wire. This eliminates the
need for ground wire between panels. You don't need to worry about the
bolts stripping out either.

This method won't work with every type of rack but it should be
acceptable with most.

Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Wiley [mailto:btw at we-llc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: FW: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]


Hi Aaron,

I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.

This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.

Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.

Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was

taught

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to

ensure

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a

washer.

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and

void

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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[Ray Walters]

<x-flowed>


Hi Sky;

I think several on the list would say this is NOT code compliant; but
here in the lawless outback, we do the same thing. There is an issue
with the anodized coating on the aluminum, but my testing shows a low
resistance connection with star washers. We always isolate the copper
braid from the aluminum with stainless washers too. This method
passes inspection here, for what ever thats worth. Its not UL, but
look at other electrical systems that allow mounting to a steel
backing plate to be the ground connection, or attaching to the steel
building framing to be the allowable grounding path. (When was the
last time UL tested an entire building's bolted structure for
electrical conduction?)
Its interesting that your grounding method might not be allowed, but
every building in our area is required to have a UFER ground, which
is a rusty piece of rebar with copper wire clamped directly to it.
No one here is going to convince me that there will not be galvanic
corrosion between these dissimilar metals that will cause resistance.
(we weld, and often the rust is so thick the welder can't pass enough
current to even work)
So stainless star washers to aluminum rails seems as good or better a
conductor than copper to rusty rebar IMHO.
On the same idea, we always sink a separate ground rod beside the
pole, but a 6" steel pipe sunk in 4 ft in the ground in concrete
should be as good a ground as the allowed rusty rebar or 5/8" ground
rod.
I've been wanting to buy a clamp-on ground impedance tester, because
the code allows ( I believe) any ground if you can prove it has an
impedance of less than 25 ohms.
I think many ground rod and UFER installations might not pass this test.
I don't care so much for dissecting the language of the code, if I
can field test and confirm good performance.
Talk is cheap, good installation that can be verified scientifically
is not.

Ray Walters
solarray.com

Post by Sky Sims
Personally I prefer to use bolts with star washers for the grounding
points. Our rack is secured at four points with bolts and star washers
to each panel. The rack becomes the ground wire. This eliminates the
need for ground wire between panels. You don't need to worry about the
bolts stripping out either.
This method won't work with every type of rack but it should be
acceptable with most.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Wiley [mailto:btw at we-llc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: FW: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]
Hi Aaron,
I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.
This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.
Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.
Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was

taught

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to

ensure

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part
#GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a

washer.

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using
anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and

void

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442




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</x-flowed>

[Ray Walters]

<x-flowed>


Hi Sky;

I think several on the list would say this is NOT code compliant; but
here in the lawless outback, we do the same thing. There is an issue
with the anodized coating on the aluminum, but my testing shows a low
resistance connection with star washers. We always isolate the copper
braid from the aluminum with stainless washers too. This method
passes inspection here, for what ever thats worth. Its not UL, but
look at other electrical systems that allow mounting to a steel
backing plate to be the ground connection, or attaching to the steel
building framing to be the allowable grounding path. (When was the
last time UL tested an entire building's bolted structure for
electrical conduction?)
Its interesting that your grounding method might not be allowed, but
every building in our area is required to have a UFER ground, which
is a rusty piece of rebar with copper wire clamped directly to it.
No one here is going to convince me that there will not be galvanic
corrosion between these dissimilar metals that will cause resistance.
(we weld, and often the rust is so thick the welder can't pass enough
current to even work)
So stainless star washers to aluminum rails seems as good or better a
conductor than copper to rusty rebar IMHO.
On the same idea, we always sink a separate ground rod beside the
pole, but a 6" steel pipe sunk in 4 ft in the ground in concrete
should be as good a ground as the allowed rusty rebar or 5/8" ground
rod.
I've been wanting to buy a clamp-on ground impedance tester, because
the code allows ( I believe) any ground if you can prove it has an
impedance of less than 25 ohms.
I think many ground rod and UFER installations might not pass this test.
I don't care so much for dissecting the language of the code, if I
can field test and confirm good performance.
Talk is cheap, good installation that can be verified scientifically
is not.

Ray Walters
solarray.com

Post by Sky Sims
Personally I prefer to use bolts with star washers for the grounding
points. Our rack is secured at four points with bolts and star washers
to each panel. The rack becomes the ground wire. This eliminates the
need for ground wire between panels. You don't need to worry about the
bolts stripping out either.
This method won't work with every type of rack but it should be
acceptable with most.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Wiley [mailto:btw at we-llc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: FW: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]
Hi Aaron,
I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.
This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.
Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.
Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was

taught

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to

ensure

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part
#GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a

washer.

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using
anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and

void

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442




--
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</x-flowed>

[Aaron Wellendorf]

Fellow wrenches,

I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?

Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.

"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"

Thank you,

Aaron Wellendorf


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[Aaron Wellendorf]

Fellow wrenches,

I am resending this as it did not seem to post.

I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?

Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.

"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"

Thank you,

Aaron Wellendorf


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[Brian Wiley]

Hi Aaron,

I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.

This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.

Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.

Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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[Joe Felker]

Aaron,
Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
engage not less than two threads

Joe

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements for
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of a
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or a
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was taught
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to ensure
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement for
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a washer.
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and void
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

Joe Felker

Engineering Manager
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
The Solar Center


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[Aaron Wellendorf]

Joe,

The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."

The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.

Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.

Aaron Wellendorf

Joe Felker wrote:
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads


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[Joe Felker]

Look in the 2008 code. That's what I quoted from...

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Joe,
The 2005 NEC 250.8 does not mention thread engagement standards, machine
screws, or thread-forming screws. It requires use of a "listed means" of
connection, no solder only connections, and forbids sheet metal screws.
"Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors or
connection devices to enclosures."
The "listed means" of connection most likely incorporates thread
engagement standards in the listing testing process, but they are not
spelled out. Probably because if you install the component in the listed
manner you would meet the unstated standard. I would still like to know
where an electrical thread engagement standard is found. I want to
incorporate the standard into our training program. The NRTL's test to
written standards and approve grounding connections and grounding kits
(like Sq D's). Like Brian Wiley said, the standard may be mechanical and
does not appear to be in the NEC.
Thank you for pointing out the non-sheet metal screw requirement.
Aaron Wellendorf
<Look in 250.8 Connection of Grounding & Bonding Equipment
<It permits the use of machine screws or thread-forming screws that
<engage not less than two threads

Joe Felker

Engineering Manager
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
The Solar Center


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[Sky Sims]

Personally I prefer to use bolts with star washers for the grounding
points. Our rack is secured at four points with bolts and star washers
to each panel. The rack becomes the ground wire. This eliminates the
need for ground wire between panels. You don't need to worry about the
bolts stripping out either.

This method won't work with every type of rack but it should be
acceptable with most.

Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Wiley [mailto:btw at we-llc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: FW: Grounding screw requirement [RE-wrenches]


Hi Aaron,

I do not think there is any such specification for electrical
connections. The 3 thread rule of thumb is for mechanical engineering
and relates to mechanical strength, not current carrying capacity.

This is why UL requires the manufacturer to provide a specific screw
with their product.

Tests in my laboratory have established that a 10-32 stainless steel
screw with 3 threads (as is commonly used on PV modules) is capable of
carrying enough current to be used with a 10 AWG wire maximum.

Brian Wiley
Wiley Electronics LLC

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
Fellow wrenches,
I am resending this as it did not seem to post.
I am trying to come up with documentation regarding the requirements

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
ground screws, such as those used to mount a mechanical lug inside of

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
disconnect switch or a junction box. I have seen installations with a
Tek screw holding ground lugs to electrical boxes. I have always
used/required the typical 10-32 ground screw that is self tapping, or

a

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
properly sized pre-threaded hole to put in the 10-32 screw. I was

taught

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
that proper thread engagement was 3 threads touching the metal to

ensure

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
long term contact and continuity. I am searching for the requirement

for

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
the 3 threads or any other specification relevant. I have searched my
electronic copy of the NEC and can't find a reference to this. Can
anyone tell me where a written specification can be found?
Square D tech support says that to maintain their UL listings, their
safety switches require the use of their grounding kit, part #GTK0610,
which has a 12-24 hex head self-tapping screw 0.62" long with a

washer.

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
The screw must be installed in the location marked with the ground
symbol.
"Aaron, All of our safety switches have a UL label inside the
switch that lists the UL listed accessories that can be used. The
ground kits for these switches are listed on this label.
These UL listed kits are the only accessories that should be used in
these switches to retain the UL listing, and warranty. Using anything
not listed on this label will not be UL listed as an accessory, and

void

Post by Aaron Wellendorf
any warranty.
Tim Milbert Product Support Specialist"
Thank you,
Aaron Wellendorf

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