Discussion:
Quantifying power quality
(too old to reply)
William Miller
2014-10-12 05:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Friends:



I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a "power failure" has occurred.



I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to
see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.



I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions
are not that great and I don't know how to interpret the data. Do any of
you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?



In a more general sense, how good is power to be called "good"? I have done
some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone
have a short answer?



And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping-the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)



I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up
on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address
the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.



Thanks in advance.



William





Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



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Tump
2014-10-12 12:01:39 UTC
Permalink
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will monitor 1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able to print out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I rent this from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly too. NO MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes have very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power quality should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see a time line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep" utility power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact info or if you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to use and VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then. The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island / Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases. During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401
Blair "TUMP" May
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
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Mac Lewis
2014-10-12 13:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi William,

Power quality, in your case, refers to how close to 60 Hz (frequency
component), 120/240 VAC RMS (amplitude component) your voltage waveform
is. Every waveform is the superposition of different frequencies,
amplitudes etc. Power quality requirements for a devices input or output
are usually defined in total harmonic distortion (THD %) and in voltage
ranges. THD is an attempt to quantify harmonics on a waveform. It is the
ratio of the sum of all harmonics to the fundamental frequency (60Hz in
your case).
A Sunny Island has THD and amplitude tolerances similar to that of the grid
(3%, 105-132VAC). I have found that most generators aren't as close and
the distortion in a waveform is easily discernible.

My approach to your problem might be to ask for the power quality
requirements for the UPS not to beep. Document that the Sunny
Islands/Generator system is delivering these requirements during beep
events using a power quality analyzer. Put problem back on UPS guy if you
can prove that your system is delivering adequate power quality. This is
how our utility deals with alleged power quality problems.



Good luck.
Post by Tump
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will monitor
1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able to print
out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I rent this
from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly too. NO
MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's
acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to
the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes have
very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power quality
should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see a time
line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep" utility
power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact info or if
you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to use and
VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me
to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the
instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the
data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could
possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have
done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does
anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up
on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either
address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
*Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
Solarwinds Northernlights
* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo s? que no s? nada." -S?crates*
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Chris Mason
2014-10-12 14:24:06 UTC
Permalink
I recently worked on a Sunny Island/Sunny Boy system in a nearby island,
that powered and protected a complete Home Automation system, including the
airco system keeping it cool. I had to restart the Sunny Islands to sort
out a COMS problem, which revealed some IT issues. It turns out the Sunny
Island system had kept it all running smoothly for about four years without
an issue so no-one had realized some of the firmware was crunched. I would
get rid of the UPS altogether and that ends the problem.
Post by Tump
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will monitor
1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able to print
out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I rent this
from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly too. NO
MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's
acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to
the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes have
very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power quality
should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see a time
line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep" utility
power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact info or if
you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to use and
VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me
to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the
instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the
data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could
possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have
done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does
anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up
on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either
address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
*Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
Solarwinds Northernlights
* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Tump
2014-10-12 14:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Thats the best fix I've heard yet!
Document then DUMP IT! With the power logger you would also be able to capture the transition from utility to SI for your home auto gusto see if he is able to accept the power quality too.
I recently worked on a Sunny Island/Sunny Boy system in a nearby island, that powered and protected a complete Home Automation system, including the airco system keeping it cool. I had to restart the Sunny Islands to sort out a COMS problem, which revealed some IT issues. It turns out the Sunny Island system had kept it all running smoothly for about four years without an issue so no-one had realized some of the firmware was crunched. I would get rid of the UPS altogether and that ends the problem.
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will monitor 1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able to print out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I rent this from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly too. NO MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes have very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power quality should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see a time line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep" utility power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact info or if you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to use and VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then. The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island / Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases. During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401
Blair "TUMP" May
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician
www.cometsolar.com
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401
Blair "TUMP" May
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
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Chris Mason
2014-10-12 15:06:22 UTC
Permalink
If the SI system has enough reserve, run it totally off-grid with the grid
as backup. Then they will never see any transitions.
Post by Tump
Thats the best fix I've heard yet!
Document then DUMP IT! With the power logger you would also be able to
capture the transition from utility to SI for your home auto gusto see if
he is able to accept the power quality too.
I recently worked on a Sunny Island/Sunny Boy system in a nearby island,
that powered and protected a complete Home Automation system, including the
airco system keeping it cool. I had to restart the Sunny Islands to sort
out a COMS problem, which revealed some IT issues. It turns out the Sunny
Island system had kept it all running smoothly for about four years without
an issue so no-one had realized some of the firmware was crunched. I would
get rid of the UPS altogether and that ends the problem.
Post by Tump
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will
monitor 1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able
to print out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I
rent this from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly
too. NO MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's
acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to
the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes
have very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power
quality should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see
a time line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep"
utility power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact
info or if you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to
use and VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me
to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the
instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the
data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could
possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have
done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does
anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came
up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either
address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
*Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
Solarwinds Northernlights
* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician
www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com/>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
*Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
Solarwinds Northernlights
* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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toddcory
2014-10-12 15:27:41 UTC
Permalink
perhaps i am not understanding the set-up, but why feed a ups with a ups? doesnt the sunny island already provide ups capabilities for the loads connected to it?

todd




On Sunday, October 12, 2014 7:40am, "Tump" <tump at swnl.net> said:


Thats the best fix I've heard yet!
Document then DUMP IT! With the power logger you would also be able to capture the transition from utility to SI for your home auto gusto see if he is able to accept the power quality too.


On Oct 12, 2014, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
I recently worked on a Sunny Island/Sunny Boy system in a nearby island, that powered and protected a complete Home Automation system, including the airco system keeping it cool. I had to restart the Sunny Islands to sort out a COMS problem, which revealed some IT issues. It turns out the Sunny Island system had kept it all running smoothly for about four years without an issue so no-one had realized some of the firmware was crunched. I would get rid of the UPS altogether and that ends the problem.


On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Tump <[ tump at swnl.net ]( mailto:tump at swnl.net )> wrote:

I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will monitor 1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able to print out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I rent this from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly too. NO MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes have very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power quality should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see a time line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep" utility power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact info or if you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to use and VERY informative.


On Oct 12, 2014, at 1:21 AM, William Miller wrote:



Friends:

I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then. The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island / Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.

I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases. During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.

I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?

In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone have a short answer?

And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not hearing the beeper.)

I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.

Thanks in advance.

William


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Chris Mason
2014-10-12 16:54:55 UTC
Permalink
A Sunny Island that switches to and from grid power probably does not
transfer smoothly enough to protect sensitive equipment, but if it is
online all the time, using solar to charge the batteries, I would not
bother with a UPS.
Post by toddcory
perhaps i am not understanding the set-up, but why feed a ups with a ups?
doesnt the sunny island already provide ups capabilities for the loads
connected to it?
todd
Thats the best fix I've heard yet!
Document then DUMP IT! With the power logger you would also be able to
capture the transition from utility to SI for your home auto gusto see if
he is able to accept the power quality too.
I recently worked on a Sunny Island/Sunny Boy system in a nearby island,
that powered and protected a complete Home Automation system, including the
airco system keeping it cool. I had to restart the Sunny Islands to sort
out a COMS problem, which revealed some IT issues. It turns out the Sunny
Island system had kept it all running smoothly for about four years without
an issue so no-one had realized some of the firmware was crunched. I would
get rid of the UPS altogether and that ends the problem.
Post by Tump
I have in the past have used the Fluke power logger 1735 , It will
monitor 1/3 phases voltages spikes/dips in V, A, Hz , +++ AND one is able
to print out a time line of all the "occurrences" that may trip the UPS. I
rent this from some folks in Texas quite reasonable ~ $230/month or weekly
too. NO MORE finger pointing!
I found that when the generator was charging the batteries, the UPS's
acceptable voltage window was below the limits and began beeping, due to
the poor voltage regulation of the gen under hi load/charging conditions.
Are you able to log the Hz as well as the voltages? The ups sometimes
have very close voltage windows that they work within. The SI/SB's power
quality should NOT be the issue. With this power logger one is able to see
a time line and figure out what it operating at the time of "fault/beep"
utility power or generator power. Contact me off list for rental contact
info or if you would like to see what the graphs look like. Tool is easy to
use and VERY informative.
I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.
I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me
to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.
I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the
instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the
data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could
possibly advise me?
In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have
done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does
anyone have a short answer?
And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)
I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came
up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either
address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.
Thanks in advance.
William
<image002.jpg>
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600
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* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
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--
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician
www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com/>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
_______________________________________________
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List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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www.members.re-wrenches.org
*Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
Solarwinds Northernlights
* Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
* 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
<610-517-8401> *
*Blair "TUMP" May*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * *
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
* ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Marco Mangelsdorf
2014-10-12 05:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Can you get the specs on the UPS, as far as tolerances and ranges? Maybe
check with the manufacturer of the UPS as far as being able to reprogram the
bugger to be, shall we say, less sensitive. I know that there's a lot that
can be done as far as being able to reprogram inverter parameters. (Boy, do
we know all about that here in Hawaii.)



marco



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 7:21 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quantifying power quality



Friends:



I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the
expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power
quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then.
The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island /
Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails
reports in flurries that indicate a "power failure" has occurred.



I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to
see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases.
During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and
every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power
quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am
recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.



I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions
are not that great and I don't know how to interpret the data. Do any of
you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?



In a more general sense, how good is power to be called "good"? I have done
some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone
have a short answer?



And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is
designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS
corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping-the best move in
this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not
hearing the beeper.)



I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up
on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny
Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address
the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.



Thanks in advance.



William





Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



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Starlight Solar Power Systems
2014-10-12 18:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi William,

If you recall a couple years ago we had some discussion here about a problem with a specific make appliance being powered by a Magnum inverter. The problem, it was discovered, was the appliance input PF was creating current demands that the transformer based inverter could not keep up with. When I powered the load with a low cost, high frequency inverter, it worked fine. Apparently the HF inverter can keep up with the current changes faster than the Magnum.

To fix the problem, a 50mf run type capacitor was installed in the appliance so that it was applied across the AC input when powered on. Everything worked fine then because the cap was taming the wild current created by the low PF.

Try looking at the current and voltage waveform together (AC shunt, dual trace scope) at the UPS input. If the current is displaying large spikes and/or is out of phase, you may have found the problem is with a non linear load from the UPS. It may be the SI, like the Magnum, can not keep up and so the UPS input circuits are throwing a fit.

Or, something else you can try, connect a high frequency inverter and try to power the UPS. This can be a portable 12 volt battery and inverter. If the problem disappears, well, you take it from there.

Larry



On Oct 11, 2014, at 11:21 PM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com> wrote:

Friends:

I am still having a pi$$ing match with the company that installed the expensive home entertainment system for a client over the issue of power quality. The UPS beeps frequently and the AV system crashes now and then. The lead installer has copped an attitude and is blaming the Sunny Island / Sunny Boy / Generac system for the AV system problems. The UPS emails reports in flurries that indicate a ?power failure? has occurred.

I have a Dataq data acquisition system sampling at a rate that allows me to see the individual cycles on the system output on one of three phases. During the time that a power failure is reported to have occurred each and every cycle looks great. I know this is not a definitive test of power quality so I upped my game. I bought a Fluke VR1710 power monitor and I am recording power quality from the same receptacle that feeds the UPS.

I have some log files from the Fluke Power Log software but the instructions are not that great and I don?t know how to interpret the data. Do any of you have any experience with this software and could possibly advise me?

In a more general sense, how good is power to be called ?good?? I have done some research and the industry material is a bit overwhelming. Does anyone have a short answer?

And lastly, even though the UPS is beeping, if it is doing what it is designed to do, the power quality should not be an issue because the UPS corrects for any problems. (Actually the UPS was beeping?the best move in this situation was to mute the annunciator so at least the homeowner is not hearing the beeper.)

I know others of you are dealing with the same problems because it came up on this forum. I am interested in an approach that verifies the Sunny Islands are producing adequately good power, or not, so I can either address the problem or get the AV guy off my rear end.

Thanks in advance.

William



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Exeltech
2014-10-12 18:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

Be careful about connecting *any* capacitors across an inverter's AC output. It's not a smart thing to do.

While a capacitor may help in some cases when a load has a substantially poor power factor due to significant inductance, there are two serious concerns here:

1. The power factor seen by the inverter will be equally bad in the opposite polarity when the inductive load turns off, and IF the capacitor is still connected across the lines. Larry implied the capacitor he connected was disconnected when the load turned off.

2. Larry "shot-gunned" a solution. He guessed, and got lucky. We don't know how much actual capacitance was needed in this specific situation. Capacitors connected across an inverter's AC output can destabilize its voltage control loops, leading to erratic AC voltage, resulting in possible damage to the inverter, the load(s) .. or both.

Power factor is one of the most misunderstood aspects of electricity.



Dan
(Professional inverter design engineer .. among other things...)

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10/12/14, Starlight Solar Power Systems <larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Quantifying power quality
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Sunday, October 12, 2014, 1:33 PM

Hi William,

If you recall a couple years ago we had some discussion here about a problem with a specific make appliance being powered by a Magnum inverter. The problem, it was discovered, was the appliance input PF was creating current demands that the transformer based inverter could not keep up with. When I powered the load with a low cost, high frequency inverter, it worked fine. Apparently the HF inverter can keep up with the current changes faster than the Magnum.

To fix the problem, a 50mf run type capacitor was installed in the appliance so that it was applied across the AC input when powered on. Everything worked fine then because the cap was taming the wild current created by the low PF.

Try looking at the current and voltage waveform together (AC shunt, dual trace scope) at the UPS input. If the current is displaying large spikes and/or is out of phase, you may have found the problem is with a non linear load from the UPS. It may be the SI, like the Magnum, can not keep up and so the UPS input circuits are throwing a fit.

Or, something else you can try, connect a high frequency inverter and try to power the UPS. This can be a portable 12 volt battery and inverter. If the problem disappears, well, you take it from there.

Larry
William Miller
2014-10-12 19:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Friends:

The system is off grid with:
3 SI6048s in 3 phase
2 SB5000s
1SB4000
1 Generac 40kw generator
A Savant home automation system with
Furman 1500 UPS.

Yes, when the SIs are running into the Furman we have cascading UPSs, but when the generator is powering loads it transfers straight through the SIS and then it is not cascading UPSs.

I would hope the Furman could "play nice" with the SIs and maybe it can. If indeed power quality from the SIs is acceptable, maybe we can program the Furman to be more accepting, or just shut off the beeper and email alarms and let it performed its intended function in silence.

I will evaluate if alarms are more prevalent during gen run or non-gen run. I will also contact Furman.

Thanks for the feedback.

William
Ray Walters
2014-10-12 20:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan;

I, like Larry, must be amazingly lucky then, because we've solved power
quality issues for many years with 50mf caps. Usually, its been front
loading washers not running on Trace SW inverters, but also Grundfos CP
pumps, too. Never had a problem, and some of these have been running
that way for over 15 years.
I never had a power quality issue with an Exeltech, so I've never used
this trick with your inverters.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
Post by Exeltech
Wrenches,
Be careful about connecting *any* capacitors across an inverter's AC output. It's not a smart thing to do.
1. The power factor seen by the inverter will be equally bad in the opposite polarity when the inductive load turns off, and IF the capacitor is still connected across the lines. Larry implied the capacitor he connected was disconnected when the load turned off.
2. Larry "shot-gunned" a solution. He guessed, and got lucky. We don't know how much actual capacitance was needed in this specific situation. Capacitors connected across an inverter's AC output can destabilize its voltage control loops, leading to erratic AC voltage, resulting in possible damage to the inverter, the load(s) .. or both.
Power factor is one of the most misunderstood aspects of electricity.
Dan
(Professional inverter design engineer .. among other things...)
--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Quantifying power quality
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Sunday, October 12, 2014, 1:33 PM
Hi William,
If you recall a couple years ago we had some discussion here about a problem with a specific make appliance being powered by a Magnum inverter. The problem, it was discovered, was the appliance input PF was creating current demands that the transformer based inverter could not keep up with. When I powered the load with a low cost, high frequency inverter, it worked fine. Apparently the HF inverter can keep up with the current changes faster than the Magnum.
To fix the problem, a 50mf run type capacitor was installed in the appliance so that it was applied across the AC input when powered on. Everything worked fine then because the cap was taming the wild current created by the low PF.
Try looking at the current and voltage waveform together (AC shunt, dual trace scope) at the UPS input. If the current is displaying large spikes and/or is out of phase, you may have found the problem is with a non linear load from the UPS. It may be the SI, like the Magnum, can not keep up and so the UPS input circuits are throwing a fit.
Or, something else you can try, connect a high frequency inverter and try to power the UPS. This can be a portable 12 volt battery and inverter. If the problem disappears, well, you take it from there.
Larry
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Kevin Pegg
2014-10-13 17:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Something we have done in similar situations is wire in a small, dedicated 48V inverter to run the sensitive loads. Always in invert mode never charging so gen power never touches it. It's way more efficient as well than having an inverter charging an UPS battery. It could of course also be a dedicated larger inverter if the loads demanded.

At our off-grid shop we have a dedicated Exeltech inverter that runs servers, phones, alarm, cameras, etc. Works very well.

In remote sites we typically power all the comms up by dedicated system like this. Gives us an opportunity to diagnose and or resolve remotely should the main power be offline for any reason.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On
Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: October 12, 2014 12:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Quantifying power quality


Friends:

The system is off grid with:
3 SI6048s in 3 phase
2 SB5000s
1SB4000
1 Generac 40kw generator
A Savant home automation system with
Furman 1500 UPS.

Yes, when the SIs are running into the Furman we have cascading UPSs, but when the generator is powering loads it transfers straight through the SIS and then it is not cascading UPSs.

I would hope the Furman could "play nice" with the SIs and maybe it can. If indeed power quality from the SIs is acceptable, maybe we can program the Furman to be more accepting, or just shut off the beeper and email alarms and let it performed its intended function in silence.

I will evaluate if alarms are more prevalent during gen run or non-gen run. I will also contact Furman.

Thanks for the feedback.

William

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