Discussion:
Pulse Power CC
(too old to reply)
Drake Chamberlin
2009-07-14 14:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Is there any way to adjust the voltage on the charge control of a
Pulse Power Center?


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Dana
2009-07-14 17:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Hey all -



I have a customer [new] that has a Lorentz PS600 pump controller existing on
a 48 VDC battery bank system for pressure pumping and she loses a controller
a year to lightning.



There was no SOV or MOV on the 48 VDC input and I just ordered one to
reinstall with the new controller.

However I am looking for an MOV or SOV for the 3Phase15-45 VAC line to the
pump as it leaves the controller to the pump.



Any suggestions?



Thanks in advance.



Dana Orzel



Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931

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Chris Worcester
2009-07-14 18:50:31 UTC
Permalink
We use the Delta LA DC or AC 303 or 603's on three phase if that helps.



Sincerely,

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com <http://www.solarwindworks.com/>
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:50 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3PH SOV or MOV



Hey all -



I have a customer [new] that has a Lorentz PS600 pump controller existing on
a 48 VDC battery bank system for pressure pumping and she loses a controller
a year to lightning.



There was no SOV or MOV on the 48 VDC input and I just ordered one to
reinstall with the new controller.

However I am looking for an MOV or SOV for the 3Phase15-45 VAC line to the
pump as it leaves the controller to the pump.



Any suggestions?



Thanks in advance.



Dana Orzel



Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931

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Drake Chamberlin
2009-07-14 19:31:40 UTC
Permalink
You could use two of the Delta low voltage DC
units, and stagger the phases to get all three wires.
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01CA0479.3543F340"
Content-Language: en-us
Hey all ?
I have a customer [new] that has a Lorentz PS600
pump controller existing on a 48 VDC battery
bank system for pressure pumping and she loses a
controller a year to lightning.
There was no SOV or MOV on the 48 VDC input and
I just ordered one to reinstall with the new controller.
However I am looking for an MOV or SOV for the
3Phase15-45 VAC line to the pump as it leaves the controller to the pump.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - dana at solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
?I'd put my money on solar energy
I hope we
don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.?
?Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford
and Harvey Firestone, March 1931
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Dana
2009-07-14 20:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Does it have a charge controller card mounted in the door?



Dana Orzel



Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC





Is there any way to adjust the voltage on the charge control of a Pulse
Power Center?




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648

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Brian White
2009-07-14 21:26:09 UTC
Permalink
All of the controllers that Pulse / Connect ever produced (even back to the APT days) had some sort of method of adjusting the Bulk, Float, and Eq charge levels. The circuit board should have anywhere from 2 - 10 adjustment pots (depending on model) as well as an identifier to signify the model (PM60, PC250, PC500, etc..).

Unfortunately, the process is not straight forward I no longer remember the process, or have access to any of the manuals. If you can not find them from somewhere on this list, there is one other option you might try. Bill Barnickol was the person who has been repairing / servicing these boards up until they got out of the cc business, and he may still have a copy of the manual or knowledge of the procedure. Bill lives in Grass Valley, CA off Lower Colfax Highway, you might try doing a local search for the area of Grass Valley on his last name and find his contact info if required.

(my apologies for what ever the attachment is that my e-mail program creates for my signature)

Good Luck

Brian C. White
Sr. Design Engineer - PV System

Eagle Roofing Products
120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Phone: 530-273-2948
Cell: 530-575-5550
e-mail: brianw at eagleroofing.com <mailto:brianw at eagleroofing.com>



________________________________

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of Dana
Sent: Tue 7/14/2009 1:56 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC



Does it have a charge controller card mounted in the door?



Dana Orzel



Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy... I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC





Is there any way to adjust the voltage on the charge control of a Pulse Power Center?




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648

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Drake Chamberlin
2009-07-15 13:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Dana and Brian,

I will look for a board next time I'm out. I
might try calling Bill Barnickol if necessary.


-Drake
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01CA0493.564693D0"
Content-Language: en-us
Does it have a charge controller card mounted in the door?
Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - dana at solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
?I'd put my money on solar energy
I hope we
don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.?
?Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford
and Harvey Firestone, March 1931
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC
Is there any way to adjust the voltage on the
charge control of a Pulse Power Center?
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Dana
2009-07-15 14:04:52 UTC
Permalink
If it has a board there are 2 set screws that are adjustable [ 1- upper set
point & 2 lower set point for reconnect] and you need to read the current
voltage and then apply a simple formula [using a calculator] figure out the
setting to adjust it to. It helped to have 2 DVM's along with a calculator.
It has been a long time since I had to set one of these and I have no memory
as to the formula. If you cannot find it I still Have an ANANDA Power panel
in the shop [new] that may have this style of CC and an instruction book but
I would have to rip into the box . Let me know if you cannot find it easier
than that. If you cannot I will go rummaging.



I would suggest an Outback Flexware or like style upgrade, it would be a lot
kinder to the battery bank.



Dana Orzel



Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:47 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC



Thanks Dana and Brian,

I will look for a board next time I'm out. I might try calling Bill
Barnickol if necessary.


-Drake

At 04:56 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01CA0493.564693D0"
Content-Language: en-us

Does it have a charge controller card mounted in the door?

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com <http://www.solarwork.com/>
E - dana at solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."
-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulse Power CC



Is there any way to adjust the voltage on the charge control of a Pulse
Power Center?


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648

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Ron Young
2009-07-30 00:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

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toddcory
2009-07-30 00:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Power factor on DC? As far as I know, power factor / vars is an AC phenomena where current and voltage are out of phase.

Todd

On Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45pm, "Ron Young" <solareagle at solareagle.com> said:

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application.


Ron Young

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

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Wind-sun.com
2009-07-30 14:43:57 UTC
Permalink
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.

..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Young
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor


Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application.


Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com




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Ron Young
2009-07-30 19:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|

I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %

I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.

I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
Power Factor with reference to PV:

POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems

This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf

Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Young
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-30 19:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though ! :)


boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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R. Walters
2009-07-30 20:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors.
Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF
problem in most situations.

Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue
my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between
what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads
being used by that residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas
emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/
industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
...................................................................
...............................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
....................................................................
..............................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-30 21:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Walters
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If
one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric
motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second
later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a
little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag,
and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only
inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called "Displacement
Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters.

For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the AC
voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the
current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower
than 1.0 power factor for sure.

For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current
and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.

So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to
think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA
to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will work in
all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). Apparent power
is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless the
PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.

Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive, (inductive
or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion. Capacitive
and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase in current and
voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees
phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90 degrees out of phase.
If ALL of the current is in phase with the voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0

It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically it.
Feel free to add to this.

boB



power meters.
Post by R. Walters
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that everybody
wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors.
Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF
problem in most situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the
utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by
that residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR
installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings
with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-30 21:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.


OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !

Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.

boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Allan Sindelar
2009-07-31 00:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Ron,
Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put down 1.0
or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next question.
They'll never catch it.

Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though ! :)


boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
............................................................................
......................
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
............................................................................
......................
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
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Post by Wind-sun.com
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Ron Young
2009-07-31 01:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Well, as it's the first grid-tie system in this region they are
paying close attention. The guy I am dealing with is very stern and
precise. I put down 100%, as they wanted a percentage. So we'll see.
Thx all for the feedback, helpful as always!

Ron
Post by Allan Sindelar
Ron,
Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put down 1.0
or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next question.
They'll never catch it.
Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/
industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
......................................................................
......
......................
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
......................................................................
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Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
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Darryl Thayer
2009-07-30 00:57:08 UTC
Permalink
HI The power factor is set by the inverter. The modules are unity as there are DC. but the inverter is very close to unity. The couple of times I tried to measure power factor I got Unity. But I would think the load may affect the inverter power factor.
Darryl
From: Ron Young <solareagle at solareagle.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 7:45 PM
Can anyone point me in the
direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205
panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering
interconnection application. ?
Ron YoungearthRight Products -
Solareagle.com
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David Brearley
2009-07-30 20:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Ron,

Here is a definition for Power Factor that we used in our String Inverter
guide in SP1.1:

POWER FACTOR AT RATED OUTPUT
Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power in the inverter ac
output circuit at its rated power.
Importance: True power is measured in units of watts and describes the
ability to do useful work. Apparent power includes both work-producing power
and reactive power measured in volt-amperes. Power factor is a comparison of
watts to volt-amperes or real power to apparent power in an ac circuit. If
the power factor in a circuit is 1.0, then all of the power generated is
available to do useful work.

The point is that you can describe the power factor for an inverter?it
approaches unity (see the Table in SP1.1)?but this does not apply for PV
modules. You can simply write ?NA? in the space provided. If they ask why,
the simplest explanation it that PV modules are part of a DC circuit and
power factor applies to AC circuits. It?s not at all uncommon for
interconnection documents to request information that is not applicable to
PV systems.

Best,

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installer ?
david.brearley at solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545
Fax: 541.512.0343

Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com

(Sample copy available for download at: solarprofessional.com/sample)
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British
Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in
Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what
power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is
that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs.
the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes
low power factor? Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting
in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes
several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
.............................................................................
.....................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
.............................................................................
.....................
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT
N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection
application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
_______________________________________________
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Matt
2009-07-30 22:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.

The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.

Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-30 22:44:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.

Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)

Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833

boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
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Allan Sindelar
2009-07-31 00:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Matt and boB,
This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would.

Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.

Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)

Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833

boB
boB Gudgel
2009-07-31 00:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Sindelar
Matt and boB,
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would.
Allan Sindelar
Hmmmm.... If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it
was trying to start or not ?
Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ?

Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the
inverter and also the generator
just for a reference point. Sounds like a great use of a PF meter
actually.

boB
Post by Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
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Chris Worcester
2009-08-01 16:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Has he checked the torque on all the battery connections?

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"


-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.

The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump.
He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a
motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being
somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.

Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
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Post by boB Gudgel
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Post by Ron Young
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Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-01 18:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Worcester
Has he checked the torque on all the battery connections?
Sincerely,
Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"
Also, Evidence of a bad battery connection (or bad inverter) should be
obvious if the house lights dim
when the pump tries to start.

boB
Post by Chris Worcester
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump.
He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a
motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being
somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
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Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor
for
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
2009-08-01 19:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has issues. I have
two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer that will work
perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there are pumps
and other items that are anti-Magnum.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Chris Worcester
Has he checked the torque on all the battery connections?
Sincerely,
Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"
Also, Evidence of a bad battery connection (or bad inverter) should
be obvious if the house lights dim
when the pump tries to start.
boB
Post by Chris Worcester
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump.
He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a
motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being
somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in
phase) power, or VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere
Reactive"). That will work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said
Power Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent
power" as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that
calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and
you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the
phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an
article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of
the two HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak
and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current
and voltage waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up)
power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's
not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage
wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and
the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive
loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors
coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads
with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is
called "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on
some power meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power
supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-
scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current
"spikes up" at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it
might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look
the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a
PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look
exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are
both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every
point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in
phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere
Reactive"). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent
power is the same thing). Apparent power is what you get when
you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is
unless the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase"
and is the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be
reactive, (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of
phase" portion. Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90
degrees out of phase in current and voltage.... It's just a
matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees phase shift and how
MUCH of that VA is + or - 90 degrees out of phase. If ALL of
the current is in phase with the voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of
each other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power
factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's
basically it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that
most inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure,
but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in
most situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I
break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for
but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line
as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to
argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference
between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the
actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a
percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented
By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session
will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over
67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in
phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in
greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR
installations and the resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor
for
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
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Post by boB Gudgel
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-01 22:28:04 UTC
Permalink
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the problem. Their take
on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be paraphrasing, but that's the drift.
All in all, I'd say that the suggestions from the group are at least as
good as the one's from the manufacturer.

Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has issues. I have
two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer that will work
perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there are
pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Chris Worcester
Has he checked the torque on all the battery connections?
Sincerely,
Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"
Also, Evidence of a bad battery connection (or bad inverter) should
be obvious if the house lights dim
when the pump tries to start.
boB
Post by Chris Worcester
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump.
He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a
motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being
somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in
phase) power, or VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere
Reactive"). That will work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said
Power Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent
power" as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that
calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and
you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the
phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an
article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of
the two HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak
and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current
and voltage waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up)
power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's
not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage
wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and
the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive
loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors
coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads
with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is
called "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on
some power meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power
supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-
scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current
"spikes up" at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it
might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look
the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a
PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look
exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are
both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every
point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in
phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere
Reactive"). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent
power is the same thing). Apparent power is what you get when
you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is
unless the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase"
and is the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be
reactive, (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of
phase" portion. Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90
degrees out of phase in current and voltage.... It's just a
matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees phase shift and how
MUCH of that VA is + or - 90 degrees out of phase. If ALL of
the current is in phase with the voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of
each other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power
factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's
basically it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that
most inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure,
but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in
most situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I
break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for
but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line
as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to
argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference
between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the
actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a
percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented
By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session
will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What
causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over
67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in
phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in
greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR
installations and the resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
............................................................................
......................
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Post by Wind-sun.com
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor
for
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Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
2009-08-01 22:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Hey Matt,

I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the problem. Their
take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be paraphrasing, but that's
the drift. All in all, I'd say that the suggestions from the group
are at least as good as the one's from the manufacturer.
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has issues. I
have two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer that will
work perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio
TV that works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe
there are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-01 23:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current going into
that pump ?? Scope ? Meter ? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current measurements.
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.

Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at the pump and at the inverter.

Must have more information. Yes, it ~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it doesn't work"

Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ? What is the maximum
Ac and DC current ? Most basic info for troubleshooting.

The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if they have this info.

Just a suggestion here.

boB
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the problem. Their
take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be paraphrasing, but that's the
drift. All in all, I'd say that the suggestions from the group are at
least as good as the one's from the manufacturer.
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has issues. I
have two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer that will
work perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV
that works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there
are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-02 03:43:35 UTC
Permalink
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the problem prior to
taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that I have heard
a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the inverter might turn
out to be one logical place to look. I like these inverters a lot, and I
really hope that we find some other issue.

To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump is attempting
to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage is connected
to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a discernable working
under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I only had the
homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work with, but the voltage
from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg. When I checked phase
to phase I also only got 120 - that's kind of weird, but it might simply
be the meter. All the household loads run flawlessly (but this is a
pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD player are the most exotic
things plugged in. The run to the pump is adequately sized - - - - - in
other words, it all seems run of the mill, except that the pump only ran
successfully one time and not on any further attempts. Golly..

Matt
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of it. I am
getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best
available for small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to
solve the problem. My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current going into
that pump ?? Scope ? Meter ? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current measurements.
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it ~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ? What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the problem. Their
take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be paraphrasing, but that's
the drift. All in all, I'd say that the suggestions from the group
are at least as good as the one's from the manufacturer.
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has issues. I
have two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer that will
work perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio
TV that works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe
there are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-02 04:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Tritt
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the problem prior
to taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that I have
heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the inverter
might turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these inverters
a lot, and I really hope that we find some other issue.
The inverter is always something to look at. An installer should always
carry a decent meter, (Fluke or otherwise), and maybe a clamp-Ammeter
with them when trying to troubleshoot. Some Flukes can be set to read
the minimum and maximum voltage, so that might also help to check surges
with.

The Magnum inverter might sag for a moment under a load surge, but its
voltage will regulate back to normal voltage in a second, or 2 or 3...
So, if it was
a voltage sag, it would be within range again, momentarily and I would
expect the pump to start again. What kind of pump is this again ? Could
it have some kind of lock-out circuit to keep it from burning up or
something ?
Post by Matt Tritt
To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump is
attempting to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage
is connected to it.
I agree that it isn't trying to start. Light dimming you would probably
see. But I wouldn't expect you to actually hear
a submersible pump buried deep in the ground ?

I still haven't heard, Matt, if the generator is connected in the normal
way and passes ~through~ the Magnum internal relay and output L1 and L2
or not.
Is there a separate circuit ? If the generator (which makes the pump
work) does not pass through the Magnum inverter, then I would suspect a
bad connection after the inverter output, going to the pump wires.

If the generator is running through the inverter when the generator runs
the pump, then all of that AC wiring would be verified as working fine.
Post by Matt Tritt
When the genny power is applied, there is a discernable working under
a load sound from the engine, and the pump works.
These high frequency inverters ~can~ be dead silent, and often are. A
generator engine would be a different thing. If the generator engine
changes when the pump starts, then its output voltage and/or frequency
is probably changing too ?
Post by Matt Tritt
I only had the homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work
with, but the voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per
leg. When I checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's kind
of weird, but it might simply be the meter.
Well, 120VAC, L1 to neutral and 120VAC L2 to neutral would be
correct. 240Vac L1 to L2.
Post by Matt Tritt
All the household loads run flawlessly (but this is a pretty
fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD player are the most exotic things
plugged in. The run to the pump is adequately sized - - - - - in other
words, it all seems run of the mill, except that the pump only ran
successfully one time and not on any further attempts. Golly..
The Magnum inverter, although it might not be the fastest surge, has a
very good waveform. A 3/4 HP pump should be
a piece of cake for it.

Golly is right !
Post by Matt Tritt
BoB are you saying that wires that are so fat and really not very long less than 10 feet can have significant inductance? >>I thought that inductance was from small wires wrapped into coils?
All cables have inductance. Even big fat 10 foot battery cables.
We see L-C resonance (from battery cables) all the time when designing inverters,
choosing capacitor sizes, etc... This is why you want to keep the positive and negative
battery cables as close to each other as possible. Inductance can also cause the sine-wave
waveform to distort under high current loads.
Post by Matt Tritt
Anyhow I thought the problem was battery internal resistance, and the building of the sine wave from pulses caused the >>problem.. I have seen battery breakers (thermal type) trip at lower current when feeding a pulse load. To supply a 1000 >>watts it takes and average current of 80 amps at 12 volts, If that is supplied by a repeating half sine wave, it requires >>a peak current of 112 amps. If the sine wave building pulses have a 50% duty cycle, the current could be as high as 224 >>amps peak.
There are all sort of weird things that can happen for sure !
Post by Matt Tritt
In Larry's case the simple inverter that takes only big pulses, the peak current for the 1000 watt load is only 80 amps. >(much easier on the battery.)
Darryl
A battery can make a great filter, and it's best when it's REAL close
(electrically) to the batteries, but battery impedance is
higher at higher ripple frequencies, and the the AC load can reflect
itself back to the battery so a capacitor is sometimes a good
addition. There ~should~ be enough capacitance built into the inverter
itself, BUT, the inverter manufacturer has to assume
that the battery cables are only so long. SOME inverters, like the old
Statpower Pro-Sine do not have this problem so much.

boB
Matt
2009-07-30 23:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??

Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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jay peltz
2009-07-30 23:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matt,

I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter
won't even get a try out of the motor.
I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.

And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
Check the battery voltage.
Could be a bad cap on the motor too.

I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems
like this.

jay

peltz power
Post by Matt
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would
go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be
an issue??
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with
a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first
fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he
tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No
workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?
425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not
the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with
no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think
not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to
admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the
pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is
always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent
power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have
horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in
phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-
linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power
factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's
basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-
wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-31 00:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by jay peltz
Hi Matt,
I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter
won't even get a try out of the motor.
I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.
And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
Check the battery voltage.
Could be a bad cap on the motor too.
I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems
like this.
jay
peltz power
Shall we try for 4 out of a million plus ?? Maybe it's another
dreaded CBI breaker ?

boB
Post by jay peltz
Post by Matt
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would
go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be
an issue??
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with
a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first
fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he
tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No
workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?
425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not
the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with
no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think
not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit
to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once,
but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said
Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have
horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jay peltz
2009-07-31 15:57:55 UTC
Permalink
HI All


In trying to round out my electrical tool box, I'm in the market for a
Megger.

I was wondering what folks are recommending and/or what features to
look for?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
Bill Brooks
2009-07-31 17:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

I bought two insulation testers (Megger is a brand name) in April. A used
Fluke 1520 off Ebay for $275 and a new inexpensive (cheap) insulation tester
on Amazon (Electronic Specialties 550 Insulation Tester for $162). Both work
fine. The Fluke has better accuracy that I need for very specialized "field
wet resistance testing" (FWRT). However, the cheap tester works great for
finding faults in conductors and severe faults in modules.

I bought both to determine if a cheap meter would work and the answer is
YES. The key is performing the tests properly and safely which requires test
procedures. The other key to actually use the tester. Several people own
these devices, but never use them. They should be used on every installation
after the wire is installed to determine if any wire damage is visible to
the tester. Even though this will not solve all field mistakes, it will
catch the marginal problems that may be too small to be detected by the GFP
circuit in the inverter.

Bill.


-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:58 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Meggers.

HI All


In trying to round out my electrical tool box, I'm in the market for a
Megger.

I was wondering what folks are recommending and/or what features to
look for?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
jay peltz
2009-08-01 00:00:46 UTC
Permalink
HI All,

I'm trying to understand this wire issue.

Whether or not there is a difference between stranded or solid wire
for DC or AC.

Any takers on this one?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
Matt
2009-07-30 23:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??

Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-30 23:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??
Matt T
Well, an inverter is just (supposed to be) a low impedance Voltage
Source and the current does whatever it is going to do... And what that
current - voltage
relationship is, is definitely related to power factor.

Is the generator (which works fine) passing ~through~ the Magnum and out
to the loads and pump ? If so, then you know it's not a high
resistance circuit or loose terminal block screw I guess. If the
generator goes around the Magnum AE internal relays then I would
suspect a high resistance connection somewhere.

I would measure the voltage at the pump and note what it does when the
pump is switched on from the inverter.
I bet you a drink, (next time I see you), that the voltage drops to zero
or at least very low.

boB
Post by Matt
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Matt
2009-07-31 00:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jay,

I think I'll check his wire connections at all the connection points first, and then the next time I'm in the area, bring my Fluke (which DOESN'T measure PF) for a closer look. Believe it or not, his meter is one of those mini GB thingies, analog of course, that would be better as a paper weight. The whole problem is really a hard thing to ferret out with face flies buzzing around your ears and eyes. :-(

Matt
Post by jay peltz
Hi Matt,
I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter
won't even get a try out of the motor.
I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.
And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
Check the battery voltage.
Could be a bad cap on the motor too.
I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems
like this.
jay
peltz power
Post by Matt
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would
go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be
an issue??
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with
a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first
fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he
tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No
workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't
it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?
425-353-8833
boB
Post by Matt
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not
the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with
no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think
not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to
admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the
pump once, but not after.
Matt T
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is
always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase)
power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That
will
work in all cases.
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just
said Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent
power" as
David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can
give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the
phase
shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article
on PF
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of
the two
HP magazines.
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by boB Gudgel
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage
peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and
voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor
is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction
of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens.
There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very
little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have
horrible PF.
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some
power
meters.
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power
supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at
the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in
phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-
linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a
PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly
the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase)
power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That
will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is
unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
case both will measure the same.
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase"
and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase"
portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of
phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or
- 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power
factor = 1.0
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's
basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
boB
power meters.
Post by boB Gudgel
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that
everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that
most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Ron Young
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I
break it
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking
for but
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as
the
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
It was most likely just a trick question.
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
boB
Post by Ron Young
I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to
argue my
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between
what
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads
being used
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor
with
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?
What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor?
This
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal
energy
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas
emissions.
Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant
savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
Ron
Post by Wind-sun.com
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since
1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-
wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power
factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a
net
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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Matt
2009-07-31 00:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Allan,

Yeah. If I could talk him into a better pump (it's the money!) the whole issue would go away. Sort of. Like a lot of folks, they save their dough and pay for improvements piecemeal, and the pump is the last big hit (if they only knew!) being saved for.

Matt
Post by Allan Sindelar
Matt and boB,
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would.
Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
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Matt
2009-07-31 00:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Geeze,
Are the PF meters available separately without having to replace a perfectly fine 337?

Matt
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Allan Sindelar
Matt and boB,
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would.
Allan Sindelar
Hmmmm.... If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it
was trying to start or not ?
Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ?
Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the
inverter and also the generator
just for a reference point. Sounds like a great use of a PF meter
actually.
boB
Post by Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?)
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833
boB
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Darryl Thayer
2009-07-31 01:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi all
When trying to run the pump with the inverter, make the following measurements.
DC amps, and DC volts to the inverter, multiply by about 0.9, this is the true power. Then measure at the same time the AC volts and the AC amps. this it the apparent power. Power factor is the ratio of apparent power to true power.

Also if the AC current exceeds the inverter rating, you will know. Use a meter with surge capability, If the surge is to high the inverter may not restore voltage, kind of lock up until it reaches overload.

Darryl
From: Matt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 7:38 PM
Geeze,
Are the PF meters available separately without having to
replace a perfectly fine 337?
Matt
---- boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Post by Allan Sindelar
Matt and boB,
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system
with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
Post by Allan Sindelar
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head
plus pressurizing (single
Post by Allan Sindelar
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so
the soft-start made it
Post by Allan Sindelar
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25
VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
Post by Allan Sindelar
had cautioned the client that this combination
wasn't certain to work,
Post by Allan Sindelar
although I expected that it would.
Allan Sindelar
???
Hmmmm....? If this is a submersible pump, how
would you really know it
was trying to start or not ?
Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short
as that try might be ?
Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to
start off the
inverter and also the generator
just for a reference point.???Sounds
like a great use of a PF meter
actually.
boB
Post by Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Post by Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
???
Post by Matt
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for
Magnum - boB,
Post by Allan Sindelar
Post by Matt
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a
3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
Post by Allan Sindelar
Post by Matt
? ???
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when
he first fired it up, it
Post by Allan Sindelar
operated the pump just fine. The next time he
tried, though. he couldn't
Post by Allan Sindelar
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
???
Post by Matt
???
? ???
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn
out" problem, doesn't it ?
Post by Allan Sindelar
If there is enough ac voltage applied to the
pump, the it should do
Post by Allan Sindelar
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you
think ????Otherwise, I
Post by Allan Sindelar
would suspect it might be a surge problem.
Is there a pilot light or something
????Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
Post by Allan Sindelar
tripped somewhere ????(when the
pump went off?)
Post by Allan Sindelar
Doesn't sound like a PF problem though...
However,? since you mention
Post by Allan Sindelar
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when
reactive phase shift is
Post by Allan Sindelar
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink"
current
Post by Allan Sindelar
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a
source to the motor.???
Post by Allan Sindelar
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any
other
Post by Allan Sindelar
decent inverter.
Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this
before ?? ? 425-353-8833
Post by Allan Sindelar
boB
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August Goers
2009-07-31 14:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches -
?
Anyone have experience with lighning hitting an array with a surge protector installed? What happened?
?
I'm Here's an ad, point number 5 mentions that the surge protectors installed in the array combiner box "protects solar modules and blocking diodes..."
?
http://www.citel.us/dc_surge_protection_overview2.html
?
I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete waste of $$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is the best protection.
?
-August
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
2009-07-31 15:00:33 UTC
Permalink
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago that
I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had quit working.
The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's radial seam, a
result I had always heard indicates a surge being absorbed.
The inverter went to the nearest authorized repair shop, a marine
maintenance facility near Houston. The only problem was a cooked internal
fusible link which was replaced free of charge.
The array was undamaged.
There's no way of knowing how close the lightning strike was but the Delta
worked as it was intended. It's the only experience I can relate first-hand
I'm happy to say.
It will be interesting to hear what sort of results you come up with.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
ntrei at earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com



--- Original Message -----
From: "August Goers" <august at luminalt.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?



Wrenches -

Anyone have experience with lighning hitting an array with a surge protector
installed? What happened?

I'm Here's an ad, point number 5 mentions that the surge protectors
installed in the array combiner box "protects solar modules and blocking
diodes..."

http://www.citel.us/dc_surge_protection_overview2.html

I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete waste of
$$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is the best
protection.

-August
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boB Gudgel
2009-07-31 18:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years
ago that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall,
had quit working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured
along it's radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge
being absorbed.
Do you know if the Delta was placed at the array, or near the inverter
?? Was most likely installed at the array ?


Thanks,
boB
Post by August Goers
The inverter went to the nearest authorized repair shop, a marine
maintenance facility near Houston. The only problem was a cooked
internal fusible link which was replaced free of charge.
The array was undamaged.
There's no way of knowing how close the lightning strike was but the
Delta worked as it was intended. It's the only experience I can relate
first-hand I'm happy to say.
It will be interesting to hear what sort of results you come up with.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
ntrei at earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com
--- Original Message ----- From: "August Goers" <august at luminalt.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Wrenches -
Anyone have experience with lighning hitting an array with a surge
protector installed? What happened?
I'm Here's an ad, point number 5 mentions that the surge protectors
installed in the array combiner box "protects solar modules and
blocking diodes..."
http://www.citel.us/dc_surge_protection_overview2.html
I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete
waste of $$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is
the best protection.
-August
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robert ellison
2009-08-01 02:26:12 UTC
Permalink
I ground things well, bond them together and I install "LA's at the array
and at the e panel. Then I make the sign of the cross and pray for the best.

Also a good idea to change them out every few years,,,, we really don't know
how hard they work, till they fail.

Bob
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's radial
seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being absorbed.
Do you know if the Delta was placed at the array, or near the inverter ??
Was most likely installed at the array ?
Thanks,
boB
The inverter went to the nearest authorized repair shop, a marine
Post by August Goers
maintenance facility near Houston. The only problem was a cooked internal
fusible link which was replaced free of charge.
The array was undamaged.
There's no way of knowing how close the lightning strike was but the Delta
worked as it was intended. It's the only experience I can relate first-hand
I'm happy to say.
It will be interesting to hear what sort of results you come up with.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
ntrei at earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com
--- Original Message ----- From: "August Goers" <august at luminalt.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Wrenches -
Anyone have experience with lighning hitting an array with a surge
protector installed? What happened?
I'm Here's an ad, point number 5 mentions that the surge protectors
installed in the array combiner box "protects solar modules and blocking
diodes..."
http://www.citel.us/dc_surge_protection_overview2.html
I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete waste
of $$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is the best
protection.
-August
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North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
2009-08-01 07:13:34 UTC
Permalink
It was at the combiner below the ground mounted array and 50-60 feet from
the inverter.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
ntrei at earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "boB Gudgel" <boB at midnitesolar.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's
radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being
absorbed.
Do you know if the Delta was placed at the array, or near the inverter ??
Was most likely installed at the array ?
Thanks,
boB
Post by August Goers
The inverter went to the nearest authorized repair shop, a marine
maintenance facility near Houston. The only problem was a cooked internal
fusible link which was replaced free of charge.
The array was undamaged.
There's no way of knowing how close the lightning strike was but the
Delta worked as it was intended. It's the only experience I can relate
first-hand I'm happy to say.
It will be interesting to hear what sort of results you come up with.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
ntrei at earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com
--- Original Message ----- From: "August Goers" <august at luminalt.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Wrenches -
Anyone have experience with lighning hitting an array with a surge
protector installed? What happened?
I'm Here's an ad, point number 5 mentions that the surge protectors
installed in the array combiner box "protects solar modules and blocking
diodes..."
http://www.citel.us/dc_surge_protection_overview2.html
I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete waste
of $$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is the best
protection.
-August
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I2P
2009-07-31 16:08:12 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 7/31/2009 7:21:49 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
august at luminalt.com writes:

I'm trying to gather a firm opinion on whether they are a complete waste
of $$$ and time or not. Good grounding seems I would guess is the best
protection.





Good grounding #1. I use ac and dc side arrestors. Consider it cheap
insurance, total cost under $100.

Suspect they are useless for direct strikes but can suppress induced surges
from nearby strikes. Never seen one (ac or dc) blow up or show any signs
that a strike occured.

Don
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
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I2P
2009-07-31 16:12:05 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 7/31/2009 8:00:57 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ntrei at earthlink.net writes:

The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's radial seam, a

result I had always heard indicates a surge being absorbed.




Jim, good new -bad new. The arrestor worked but did not save the inverter.
Lightning is a crap shoot.

Don Loweburg
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul
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Kurt Albershardt
2009-07-31 16:31:16 UTC
Permalink
FYI - I spoke with someone at Delta earlier this week about a service
entrance application and was advised that mandatory adoption of UL 1449
3rd edition happens in October. She says that there is language in that
standard which (when combined with the 2008 NEC language) makes it
nearly impossible to install a 'UL Recognized' device like an SOV at the
point where it does the most good (in front of the service disconnect)
and pass inspection. Delta offers an MOV-based design now which is
listed (as opposed to recognized) but (like all MOVs) it will
progressively degrade with time and surge activity. Something to do
with the 1449 revision specifying that a SPD must destroy itself at a
certain level of energy, which the SOVs do not do (isn't this why we use
them?) Seems the route to using the SOV here is to install the MOV
version and then swap out for the SOV after inspection. I hate this
kind of game.
Darryl Thayer
2009-08-01 02:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Well there is very slight differences between AC and Dc But this difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will do.
Darryl
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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jay peltz
2009-08-01 03:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Darryl,

But what are the differences and when do they come into play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and Dc But this difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will do.
Darryl
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-01 06:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by jay peltz
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into play?
Question interruptus and my 2 cents worth, Jay...

Except for REAL long lines, like utility transmission lines, the AC skin
effect, which is what I think
you might be referring to here, is probably not worth worrying about one
way or the other.
And, since stranded wires are not normally insulated from each other,
stranded will act pretty much
just act like one big solid wire for those concerns anyway.

Stranded wire is easier to bend and work with or course for AC or DC,
which you already knew.

boB
Post by jay peltz
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and Dc But this difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will do.
Darryl
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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Wind-sun.com
2009-08-03 10:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Skin effect at AC frequencies is a total non-issue until you get up into the
huge wire sizes, around 700 MCM solid wire if I recall correctly.

..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
From: "jay peltz" <jay at asis.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by jay peltz
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and Dc But this difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will do.
Darryl
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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Richard L Ratico
2009-08-01 10:49:05 UTC
Permalink
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Kurt Albershardt
2009-08-01 14:27:06 UTC
Permalink
2)At a different training, by a well respected professional engineer who
frequently posts here, they were judged to likely be as effective in preventing
damage as a voodoo doll.
I'm not disputing this, but would like to know more. Perhaps our PE
will elaborate.
4) Why aren't they UL listed?
According to Delta, it's because they don't fail on normal surges and
that is required as part of UL 1449.
http://www.leainternational.com/UL1449.aspx mentions it starting in 2007:

/Now, when UL tests a SPD, they will apply a fault current of 100A, 500A
and 1000A for permanently connected SPDs and 50A and 150A for plug-in
and cord connected SPDs. These currents are applied using line to line
voltage in the line to neutral mode. During this testing, the SPD must
fail in a safe manner to be UL 1449 listed.
/

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holtek
2009-08-01 15:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Dumb question:
Since the LA is not UL listed, does that void the UL listing on the entire
system? It's my undrstanding that *all* components are required to be UL
listed to make the system such.
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard L Ratico" <Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET>
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Weighing in ...
1)At a recent SMA Inverter Training, we were cautioned that the Deltas
were not
UL listed. Like many of us, I was already well aware of that. What was
interesting, was the trainer specifically recommending we NOT use them,
for
reasons related to liability.
2)At a different training, by a well respected professional engineer who
frequently posts here, they were judged to likely be as effective in
preventing
damage as a voodoo doll.
3) If one "ruptured" while someone happened to be standing in front of
it........
4) Why aren't they UL listed?
Dick
Solarwind Electric
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's
radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being
absorbed.
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jay peltz
2009-08-01 15:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Depends on who built the system.

If a UL integrator builds it, the UR works.

If I build it as joe electrician, then no the UR does not work and
could compromise the code compliance because of it.

At least this is what I was told by a "UL" shop.

jay

peltz power
Post by holtek
Since the LA is not UL listed, does that void the UL listing on the
entire system? It's my undrstanding that *all* components are
required to be UL listed to make the system such.
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L Ratico" <Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Weighing in ...
1)At a recent SMA Inverter Training, we were cautioned that the
Deltas were not
UL listed. Like many of us, I was already well aware of that. What was
interesting, was the trainer specifically recommending we NOT use
them, for
reasons related to liability.
2)At a different training, by a well respected professional
engineer who
frequently posts here, they were judged to likely be as effective
in preventing
damage as a voodoo doll.
3) If one "ruptured" while someone happened to be standing in front of
it........
4) Why aren't they UL listed?
Dick
Solarwind Electric
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's
radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being
absorbed.
_______________________________________________
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List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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holtek
2009-08-01 15:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Then if I install LA's to a system in the field, an inspector could fail a
system? Picky, yes. But you never know

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "jay peltz" <jay at asis.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Post by jay peltz
Depends on who built the system.
If a UL integrator builds it, the UR works.
If I build it as joe electrician, then no the UR does not work and could
compromise the code compliance because of it.
At least this is what I was told by a "UL" shop.
jay
peltz power
Post by holtek
Since the LA is not UL listed, does that void the UL listing on the
entire system? It's my undrstanding that *all* components are required
to be UL listed to make the system such.
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L Ratico"
<Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Weighing in ...
1)At a recent SMA Inverter Training, we were cautioned that the Deltas
were not
UL listed. Like many of us, I was already well aware of that. What was
interesting, was the trainer specifically recommending we NOT use them,
for
reasons related to liability.
2)At a different training, by a well respected professional engineer
who
frequently posts here, they were judged to likely be as effective in
preventing
damage as a voodoo doll.
3) If one "ruptured" while someone happened to be standing in front of
it........
4) Why aren't they UL listed?
Dick
Solarwind Electric
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years
ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't recall, had
quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured along it's
radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being
absorbed.
_______________________________________________
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jay peltz
2009-08-01 15:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Sure, if you install something electrical that is not UL, they can
fail it.
Even though that same part installed in a "factory" is OK.

jay
Post by holtek
Then if I install LA's to a system in the field, an inspector could
fail a system? Picky, yes. But you never know
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "jay peltz" <jay at asis.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Post by jay peltz
Depends on who built the system.
If a UL integrator builds it, the UR works.
If I build it as joe electrician, then no the UR does not work and
could compromise the code compliance because of it.
At least this is what I was told by a "UL" shop.
jay
peltz power
Post by holtek
Since the LA is not UL listed, does that void the UL listing on
the entire system? It's my undrstanding that *all* components are
required to be UL listed to make the system such.
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L Ratico" <Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge protector update?
Weighing in ...
1)At a recent SMA Inverter Training, we were cautioned that the
Deltas were not
UL listed. Like many of us, I was already well aware of that. What was
interesting, was the trainer specifically recommending we NOT
use them, for
reasons related to liability.
2)At a different training, by a well respected professional
engineer who
frequently posts here, they were judged to likely be as
effective in preventing
damage as a voodoo doll.
3) If one "ruptured" while someone happened to be standing in front of
it........
4) Why aren't they UL listed?
Dick
Solarwind Electric
Post by August Goers
August
I made a service call to a residential PVinstallation several years ago
that I did not install. The vintage Trace, size I don't
recall, had quit
working. The Delta surge suppressor had actually ruptured
along it's
radial seam, a result I had always heard indicates a surge being
absorbed.
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Exeltech
2009-08-01 16:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

Installing a part in a "factory" doesn't make a product "ok". Would be nice, but it doesn't work that way...


I use "UL" here .. but it can be any Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (ETL, CSA, UL, etc....)

Any UL "Listed" product, or any UL "Recognized" part or sub-assembly must either use components that in of themselves are also Listed and/or Recognized to specific UL Standards, or prove during UL testing of the final product that any uncertified component(s) used within the product being tested fully meet the applicable Standard(s) for such parts.

Failing that, the unit in question won't qualify for Listing/Recognition, and no UL (or equivalent lab) certification will be issued for that product by any Nationally Recognized Testing Lab. UL. ETL. CSA. etc...

Just as all grounding components in a system must meet code, which requires the use of agency certified parts .. use of a non-certified part as a protective element is likely to get the system red-tagged, as Holt pointed out earlier in this thread.

For notes .. not everyone is aware that "agency certification" refers to UL, ETL, CSA, and a number of other OSHA-certified Nationally Recognized Testing Labs. Product approvals from any of these labs are equivalent, though they're not always treated as such by AHJs or others who aren't well informed on this issue. Thankfully, the "It must be UL" attitude by AHJs and others is steadily fading as an issue. Not gone - but fading...


Dan
Post by jay peltz
Sure, if you install something electrical that is not UL,
they can fail it. Even though that same part installed
in a "factory" is OK.
jay
jason pozner
2009-08-02 14:06:39 UTC
Permalink
To piggy-back on the question, and also continue my "grounding on a glacier"
question is anyone familiar with point dissipators and have used them. Todd
mentioned Nott LTD http://www.nottltd.com/lightning.html in my last string
and I have come acrooss Lightning Masters
http://www.lightningmaster.com/index.html Both I believe use some form of
point dissipation. They are suppose to take ambient static buildup and
dissipate it slower at high voltage levels keeping the current and damage to
equipment at a minimum. Have anyone of you used these systems, or know much
about using them on an array, glacier, spaceship, marmot, midget, motorhome,
or the like?

Jay

Jay Pozner
Nunatak Alternative Energy Solutions
Crested Butte, CO
970 349-3432
Post by Exeltech
Jay,
Installing a part in a "factory" doesn't make a product "ok". Would be
nice, but it doesn't work that way...
I use "UL" here .. but it can be any Nationally Recognized Testing Lab
(ETL, CSA, UL, etc....)
Any UL "Listed" product, or any UL "Recognized" part or sub-assembly must
either use components that in of themselves are also Listed and/or
Recognized to specific UL Standards, or prove during UL testing of the final
product that any uncertified component(s) used within the product being
tested fully meet the applicable Standard(s) for such parts.
Failing that, the unit in question won't qualify for Listing/Recognition,
and no UL (or equivalent lab) certification will be issued for that product
by any Nationally Recognized Testing Lab. UL. ETL. CSA. etc...
Just as all grounding components in a system must meet code, which requires
the use of agency certified parts .. use of a non-certified part as a
protective element is likely to get the system red-tagged, as Holt pointed
out earlier in this thread.
For notes .. not everyone is aware that "agency certification" refers to
UL, ETL, CSA, and a number of other OSHA-certified Nationally Recognized
Testing Labs. Product approvals from any of these labs are equivalent,
though they're not always treated as such by AHJs or others who aren't well
informed on this issue. Thankfully, the "It must be UL" attitude by AHJs
and others is steadily fading as an issue. Not gone - but fading...
Dan
Post by jay peltz
Sure, if you install something electrical that is not UL,
they can fail it. Even though that same part installed
in a "factory" is OK.
jay
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-02 01:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance of mine on starting a large motor, using a battery and inverter. The motor would not start, or if it did if would quit in 10, or 20 min. The battery had capacity to run the motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter would kick out. I had reason to beleive the output wave form was bad also. I solved the problem by greatly increasing the battery size and the cables. I did not change the inverter at all.

What I think was happening is the high current draw of the inverter to serve the load reduced the battery voltage, but not just the average battery voltage but the 60 cycle peak voltage drop/ of the battery. The load of the inverter on the battery is like pulses, my amp clamp shows an AC current on the battery leads. If I had a scope, I would guess the inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on the battery. My grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in his sterio system, perhaps this would fix the problem. BoB what do you think?
Darryl
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are
about the best available for small 12 volt systems. I have
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My customer is
still not a happy camper.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into that pump ?????Scope
????Meter ?? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.? Some even have a mediocre scope built
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need? stats.? AC an DC side.? AC voltage at
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information.? ? Yes, it ~could~ be
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information other
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ??
What is the maximum Ac and DC current ?? Most basic
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd say that
the suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the manufacturer.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and
Magnum has issues. I have? two customers with Magnum
problems. One is a washer that will work? perfectly on
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that?
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there
are pumps? and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
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???
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-02 02:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darryl Thayer
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance of mine on starting a large motor, using a battery and inverter. The motor would not start, or if it did if would quit in 10, or 20 min. The battery had capacity to run the motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter would kick out. I had reason to beleive the output wave form was bad also. I solved the problem by greatly increasing the battery size and the cables. I did not change the inverter at all.
What I think was happening is the high current draw of the inverter to serve the load reduced the battery voltage, but not just the average battery voltage but the 60 cycle peak voltage drop/ of the battery. The load of the inverter on the battery is like pulses, my amp clamp shows an AC current on the battery leads. If I had a scope, I would guess the inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on the battery. My grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in his sterio system, perhaps this would fix the problem. BoB what do you think?
Darryl
Try it. Put it right across the inverter DC terminals if you do try
it. Sometimes, higher capacitance can actually make things worse,
like, raising the peak
DC voltage seen at the inverter terminals due to L-C resonance.

boB
Post by Darryl Thayer
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are
about the best available for small 12 volt systems. I have
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My customer is
still not a happy camper.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into that pump ?? Scope
? Meter ? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements. Some even have a mediocre scope built
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it ~could~ be
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information other
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ?
What is the maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd say that
the suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the manufacturer.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and
Magnum has issues. I have two customers with Magnum
problems. One is a washer that will work perfectly on
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there
are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-02 03:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, boB - I think this sounds like a good trail to follow.

Matt
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Darryl Thayer
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance of mine on starting a
large motor, using a battery and inverter. The motor would not
start, or if it did if would quit in 10, or 20 min. The battery had
capacity to run the motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter
would kick out. I had reason to beleive the output wave form was bad
also. I solved the problem by greatly increasing the battery size
and the cables. I did not change the inverter at all.
What I think was happening is the high current draw of the inverter
to serve the load reduced the battery voltage, but not just the
average battery voltage but the 60 cycle peak voltage drop/ of the
battery. The load of the inverter on the battery is like pulses, my
amp clamp shows an AC current on the battery leads. If I had a
scope, I would guess the inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on
the battery. My grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in his sterio
system, perhaps this would fix the problem. BoB what do you think?
Darryl
Try it. Put it right across the inverter DC terminals if you do try
it. Sometimes, higher capacitance can actually make things worse,
like, raising the peak
DC voltage seen at the inverter terminals due to L-C resonance.
boB
Post by Darryl Thayer
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt, I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are
about the best available for small 12 volt systems. I have
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My customer is
still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into that pump ?? Scope
? Meter ? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements. Some even have a mediocre scope built
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it ~could~ be
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information other
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ? What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd say that
the suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the manufacturer.
Post by Matt Tritt
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and
Magnum has issues. I have two customers with Magnum
problems. One is a washer that will work perfectly on
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that works fine on
shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there
are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-02 03:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Good point, Darryl. The resting DC volts were only at 51.6 according to
the Magnum meter, kind of on the low side. I was not able to measure any
sag on the DC side because there wuz only one of me and I ain't Plastic
Man. I bet that the inverter you measued the 60 Hz on the DC side was an
SW, right? They all have an odd ability to loosen the DC inverter cables
over time because of this harmonic vibe, especially the Al lugs they
used to use back in the day. I had several problems with tripping (no,
not that kind) breakers before I changes to better cable lugs.

Matt
Post by Darryl Thayer
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance of mine on starting a large motor, using a battery and inverter. The motor would not start, or if it did if would quit in 10, or 20 min. The battery had capacity to run the motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter would kick out. I had reason to beleive the output wave form was bad also. I solved the problem by greatly increasing the battery size and the cables. I did not change the inverter at all.
What I think was happening is the high current draw of the inverter to serve the load reduced the battery voltage, but not just the average battery voltage but the 60 cycle peak voltage drop/ of the battery. The load of the inverter on the battery is like pulses, my amp clamp shows an AC current on the battery leads. If I had a scope, I would guess the inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on the battery. My grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in his sterio system, perhaps this would fix the problem. BoB what do you think?
Darryl
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are
about the best available for small 12 volt systems. I have
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My customer is
still not a happy camper.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into that pump ?? Scope
? Meter ? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements. Some even have a mediocre scope built
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it ~could~ be
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information other
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ?
What is the maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd say that
the suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the manufacturer.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Matt T
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and
Magnum has issues. I have two customers with Magnum
problems. One is a washer that will work perfectly on
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV that
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe there
are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-02 03:32:15 UTC
Permalink
BoB are you saying that wires that are so fat and really not very long less than 10 feet can have significant inductance? I thought that inductance was from small wires wrapped into coils?

Anyhow I thought the problem was battery internal resistance, and the building of the sine wave from pulses caused the problem.. I have seen battery breakers (thermal type) trip at lower current when feeding a pulse load. To supply a 1000 watts it takes and average current of 80 amps at 12 volts, If that is supplied by a repeating half sine wave, it requires a peak current of 112 amps. If the sine wave building pulses have a 50% duty cycle, the current could be as high as 224 amps peak.

In Larry's case the simple inverter that takes only big pulses, the peak current for the 1000 watt load is only 80 amps. (much easier on the battery.)
Darryl
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 9:08 PM
Post by Darryl Thayer
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance of
mine on starting a large motor, using a battery and
inverter.? The motor would not start, or if it did if
would quit in 10, or 20 min.? The battery had capacity
to run the motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter
would kick out.? I had reason to beleive the output
wave form was bad also.? I solved the problem by
greatly increasing the battery size and the cables.? I
did not change the inverter at all.?
Post by Darryl Thayer
What I think was happening is the high current draw of
the inverter to serve the load reduced the battery voltage,
but not just the average battery voltage but the 60 cycle
peak voltage drop/ of the battery.? The load of the
inverter on the battery is like pulses, my amp clamp shows
an AC current on the battery leads.? If I had a scope,
I would guess the inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on
the battery.? My grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in
his sterio system, perhaps this would fix the problem.?
BoB what do you think?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
???
Try it.? Put it right across the inverter DC terminals
if you do try
it.???Sometimes, higher capacitance can
actually make things worse,
like, raising the peak
DC voltage seen at the inverter terminals due to L-C
resonance.
boB
Post by Darryl Thayer
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
???
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not
really a power factor issue)
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the
bottom of
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ? ???
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and
they are
Post by Darryl Thayer
about the best available for small 12 volt
systems. I have
Post by Darryl Thayer
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My
customer is
Post by Darryl Thayer
still not a happy camper.
? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ? ???
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or
current
Post by Darryl Thayer
going into that pump ?????Scope
????Meter ?? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and
current
Post by Darryl Thayer
measurements.? Some even have a mediocre
scope built
Post by Darryl Thayer
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need? stats.? AC an DC side.? AC
voltage at
Post by Darryl Thayer
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information.? ? Yes, it
~could~ be
Post by Darryl Thayer
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information
other
Post by Darryl Thayer
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start
?
Post by Darryl Thayer
What is the maximum Ac and DC current ?? Most
basic
Post by Darryl Thayer
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help
somewhat if
Post by Darryl Thayer
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ? ???
Post by Matt Tritt
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum
about the
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
? ? ? ???
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I
might be
Post by Darryl Thayer
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all,
I'd say that
Post by Darryl Thayer
the suggestions from the group are at least as
good as the
Post by Darryl Thayer
one's from the manufacturer.
? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Matt T
? ? ? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Don't forget, this is a Magnum
inverter and
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ? ? ?
???
Post by Darryl Thayer
Magnum has issues. I have? two customers with
Magnum
Post by Darryl Thayer
problems. One is a washer that will work?
perfectly on
Post by Darryl Thayer
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV
that
Post by Darryl Thayer
works fine on shore power and generator.
Soooo...maybe there
Post by Darryl Thayer
are pumps? and other items that are
anti-Magnum.
Post by Darryl Thayer
? ???
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service
and
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Post by Matt Tritt
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
? ? ? ?
???
Post by Darryl Thayer
Installation
? ???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Darryl Thayer
? ???
_______________________________________________
Post by Darryl Thayer
Post by Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-02 03:55:25 UTC
Permalink
The 120 leg to leg, that is strange. Is it possible the Inverter has an output not split phase? perhaps 2 phase or 4 phase? giving the phase to neutral a normal value and the phase to phase a weird value? I do not think thy would build it this way.
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech
with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all
looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the
problem prior to
taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that
I have
heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the
inverter might
turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these
inverters a lot,
and I really hope that we find some other issue.
To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as
in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump
is attempting
to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage
is connected
to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a
discernable working
under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I
only had the
homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work
with, but the
voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg.
When I
checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's
kind of weird, but
it might simply be the meter. All the household loads run
flawlessly
(but this is a pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD
player are
the most exotic things plugged in. The run to the pump is
adequately
sized - - - - - in other words, it all seems run of the
mill, except
that the pump only ran successfully one time and not on any
further
attempts. Golly..
Matt
Larry
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best
available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve
the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into
that pump ???? Scope ??? Meter ??
Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.?
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need? stats.? AC an DC side.? AC voltage at
the pump and at the
inverter.
Must have more information.??? Yes, it
~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it
doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ??
What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ?? Most basic info for
troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this
info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
I took boB's advice and
talked to Magnum
about the problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats
me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd
say that the
suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the
manufacturer.
Matt T
Don't forget, this is a
Magnum inverter
and Magnum has issues. I have? two customers with
Magnum problems. One
is a washer that will work? perfectly on a cheap
import inverter; the
other has a Vizio TV that? works fine on shore power
and generator.
Soooo...maybe there are pumps? and other items that
are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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_______________________________________________
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.39/2275 - Release
Date: 08/01/09 09:38:00
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-02 04:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darryl Thayer
The 120 leg to leg, that is strange. Is it possible the Inverter has an output not split phase? perhaps 2 phase or 4 phase? giving the phase to neutral a normal value and the phase to phase a weird value? I do not think thy would build it this way.
Matt said:
"When I checked phase to phase I also only got 120"

OK, Matt, that part passed right through me... Hmmmm.... (60 Hz
Hmmmm... too)

boB
Post by Darryl Thayer
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech
with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all
looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the
problem prior to
taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that
I have
heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the
inverter might
turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these
inverters a lot,
and I really hope that we find some other issue.
To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as
in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump
is attempting
to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage
is connected
to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a
discernable working
under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I
only had the
homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work
with, but the
voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg.
When I
checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's
kind of weird, but
it might simply be the meter. All the household loads run
flawlessly
(but this is a pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD
player are
the most exotic things plugged in. The run to the pump is
adequately
sized - - - - - in other words, it all seems run of the
mill, except
that the pump only ran successfully one time and not on any
further
attempts. Golly..
Matt
Larry
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best
available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve
the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into
that pump ?? Scope ? Meter ?
Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the
inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it
~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it
doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ?
What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic info for
troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this
info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
I took boB's advice and
talked to Magnum
about the problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats
me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd
say that the
suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the
manufacturer.
Matt T
Don't forget, this is a
Magnum inverter
and Magnum has issues. I have two customers with
Magnum problems. One
is a washer that will work perfectly on a cheap
import inverter; the
other has a Vizio TV that works fine on shore power
and generator.
Soooo...maybe there are pumps and other items that
are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.39/2275 - Release
Date: 08/01/09 09:38:00
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-02 03:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Yes Matt it was an SW
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:51 PM
Good point, Darryl. The resting DC volts were only at 51.6
according to
the Magnum meter, kind of on the low side. I was not able
to measure
any sag on the DC side because there wuz only one of me and
I ain't
Plastic Man. I bet that the inverter you measued the 60 Hz
on the DC
side was an SW, right? They all have an odd ability to
loosen the DC
inverter cables over time because of this harmonic vibe,
especially the
Al lugs they used to use back in the day. I had several
problems with
tripping (no, not that kind) breakers before I changes to
better cable
lugs.
Matt
Don't know if this will help, but an experiance
of mine on starting a large motor, using a battery and
inverter. The motor would not start, or if it did if would
quit in 10, or 20 min. The battery had capacity to run the
motor for 5 or 6 hrs to 50% DoD yet the inverter would kick
out. I had reason to beleive the output wave form was bad
also. I solved the problem by greatly increasing the
battery size and the cables. I did not change the inverter
at all.
What I think was happening is the high current draw of the
inverter to serve the load reduced the battery voltage, but
not just the average battery voltage but the 60 cycle peak
voltage drop/ of the battery. The load of the inverter on
the battery is like pulses, my amp clamp shows an AC current
on the battery leads. If I had a scope, I would guess the
inverter is seeing a fluxuating voltage on the battery. My
grandson has a 1 Farad Capacitor in his sterio system,
perhaps this would fix the problem. BoB what do you think?
Darryl
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a
power factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:22 PM
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting gun-shy about selling Magnum and
they are
about the best available for small 12 volt systems. I have
spend hours trying to solve the problem. My customer is
still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or
current
going into that pump ?????Scope
????Meter ?? Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.? Some even have a mediocre scope built
in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need? stats.? AC an DC side.? AC voltage at
the pump and at the inverter.
Must have more information.? ? Yes, it ~could~ be
a Magnum inverter issue, but need more information other
than "it doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ??
What is the maximum Ac and DC current ?? Most basic
info for troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum
about the
problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats
me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd
say that
the suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the manufacturer.
Matt T
Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter
and
Magnum has issues. I have? two customers with
Magnum
problems. One is a washer that will work? perfectly on
a cheap import inverter; the other has a Vizio TV
that?
works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe
there
are pumps? and other items that are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and
Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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dan
2009-08-03 13:15:31 UTC
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-03 17:43:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm hoping that it WILL be embarrassingly simple! I'm glad this wasn't
something I installed since you all know what it's like to find errors
is someone else's work. ;-)

Matt
Boy, This reminds me of a problem I had a few years ago -- don't
remember the particulars, except that it was embarrassingly simple --
like a missing connection or something. db
Dan Brown
President
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com <http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com>
NABCEP #092907-44
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor
issue)
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Sun, August 02, 2009 12:53 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
The 120 leg to leg, that is strange. Is it possible the Inverter
has an output not split phase? perhaps 2 phase or 4 phase? giving
the phase to neutral a normal value and the phase to phase a weird
value? I do not think thy would build it this way.
"When I checked phase to phase I also only got 120"
OK, Matt, that part passed right through me... Hmmmm.... (60 Hz
Hmmmm... too)
boB
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power
factor issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech
with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all
looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the
problem prior to
taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that
I have
heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the
inverter might
turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these
inverters a lot,
and I really hope that we find some other issue.
To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as
in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump
is attempting
to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage
is connected
to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a
discernable working
under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I
only had the
homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work
with, but the
voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg.
When I
checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's
kind of weird, but
it might simply be the meter. All the household loads run
flawlessly
(but this is a pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD
player are
the most exotic things plugged in. The run to the pump is
adequately
sized - - - - - in other words, it all seems run of the
mill, except
that the pump only ran successfully one time and not on any
further
attempts. Golly..
Matt
Larry
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best
available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve
the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into
that pump ?? Scope ? Meter ?
Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the
inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it
~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it
doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ?
What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic info for
troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this
info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
I took boB's advice and
talked to Magnum
about the problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats
me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd
say that the
suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the
manufacturer.
Matt T
Don't forget, this is a
Magnum inverter
and Magnum has issues. I have two customers with
Magnum problems. One
is a washer that will work perfectly on a cheap
import inverter; the
other has a Vizio TV that works fine on shore power
and generator.
Soooo...maybe there are pumps and other items that
are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 08/01/09 09:38:00
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Travis Creswell
2009-08-03 19:27:37 UTC
Permalink
I've found that well pumps have their own set of strange rules. I'm talking
twilight zone stuff. For example we wrenches talk about 2 wire and 3 wire
pumps but around here the suppliers and well service people talk about 240
(two wire, I suppose) and 230 (3 wire) pumps. Both of them a 240 single
phase in my book.



We've had some very odd experiences and are currently in the middle of
another one. We have a pump that won't drop the start windings and
overloads the pumps controller (not the inverter or the breaker). Does it
both on the dual 4kW inverter and the 12kW generator so it's not a power
thing. This happened a few years ago at another customer with a different
pump brand and inverter. It took out 2 sets of Outback Boards and caused us
no end of aggravation. Might pump for a few seconds then overload the
inverter or might work fine for weeks then trip the control box. Swapped
out the pump and down pipe wire and things were fine but no one, not even
the well pump experts could help us figure it out. Normally they work great
but when they don't they can drive you crazy.



Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services













_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor
issue)



I'm hoping that it WILL be embarrassingly simple! I'm glad this wasn't
something I installed since you all know what it's like to find errors is
someone else's work. ;-)

Matt

dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote:


Boy, This reminds me of a problem I had a few years ago -- don't remember
the particulars, except that it was embarrassingly simple -- like a missing
connection or something. db

Dan Brown
President
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor
issue)
From: boB Gudgel <mailto:boB at midnitesolar.com> <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Sun, August 02, 2009 12:53 am
To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
The 120 leg to leg, that is strange. Is it possible the Inverter has an
output not split phase? perhaps 2 phase or 4 phase? giving the phase to
neutral a normal value and the phase to phase a weird value? I do not think
thy would build it this way.
Matt said:
"When I checked phase to phase I also only got 120"

OK, Matt, that part passed right through me... Hmmmm.... (60 Hz
Hmmmm... too)

boB
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Matt Tritt <mailto:solarone at charter.net>
From: Matt Tritt <mailto:solarone at charter.net> <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverters (not really a power factor
issue)
To: "RE-wrenches" <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:43 PM
The next time I'm up there I'll take another tech
with me, plenty of
meters and go through every DC and AC connection (they all
looked good
first time around) to try and get to the bottom of the
problem prior to
taking a harder look at Magnum. I have to say, though, that
I have
heard a couple of comments that tend to suggest that the
inverter might
turn out to be one logical place to look. I like these
inverters a lot,
and I really hope that we find some other issue.
To replay the symptoms, there is no audible or visual (as
in motor
starter noises or dimming light) indication that the pump
is attempting
to do anything other than sit there when inverter voltage
is connected
to it. When the genny power is applied, there is a
discernable working
under a load sound from the engine, and the pump works. I
only had the
homeowner's lousy dime store anaglog meter to work
with, but the
voltage from the inverter was right on 120 volts per leg.
When I
checked phase to phase I also only got 120 - that's
kind of weird, but
it might simply be the meter. All the household loads run
flawlessly
(but this is a pretty fundamental cabin, so the TV and DVD
player are
the most exotic things plugged in. The run to the pump is
adequately
sized - - - - - in other words, it all seems run of the
mill, except
that the pump only ran successfully one time and not on any
further
attempts. Golly..
Matt
Larry
Hey Matt,
I sure wish their techie's would get to the bottom of
it. I am getting
gun-shy about selling Magnum and they are about the best
available for
small 12 volt systems. I have spend hours trying to solve
the problem.
My customer is still not a happy camper.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
Can you get someone to look at the voltage and/or current
going into
that pump ?? Scope ? Meter ?
Even a
power factor meter would have both voltage and current
measurements.
Some even have a mediocre scope built in.
A scope AND a meter is best of course.
Need stats. AC an DC side. AC voltage at
the pump and at the
inverter.
Must have more information. Yes, it
~could~ be a Magnum inverter
issue, but need more information other than "it
doesn't work"
Does the voltage dip when the pump tries to start ?
What is the
maximum Ac and DC current ? Most basic info for
troubleshooting.
The inverter manufacturer can probably help somewhat if
they have this
info.
Just a suggestion here.
boB
I took boB's advice and
talked to Magnum
about the problem. Their take on it? "Hmmm, beats
me!" I might be
paraphrasing, but that's the drift. All in all, I'd
say that the
suggestions from the group are at least as good as the
one's from the
manufacturer.
Matt T
Don't forget, this is a
Magnum inverter
and Magnum has issues. I have two customers with
Magnum problems. One
is a washer that will work perfectly on a cheap
import inverter; the
other has a Vizio TV that works fine on shore power
and generator.
Soooo...maybe there are pumps and other items that
are anti-Magnum.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.39/2275 - Release
Date: 08/01/09 09:38:00
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_____





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Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2278 - Release Date: 08/02/09
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-03 20:00:58 UTC
Permalink
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9

This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this?
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded? AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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Brian Teitelbaum
2009-08-03 20:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Hey Darryl,

You said - " never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating"

Is that true even for non-ferrous metals, like aluminum, or say, gold?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC


I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9

This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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Wind-sun.com
2009-08-03 20:36:10 UTC
Permalink
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current

The practical effects of running a single wire in 98% of the systems that
any solar installers will ever see is probably just about zero, and it also
only applies to AC currents (or rapidly varying DC, which is not common).
The only time I have ever actually seen this happen was several years ago
when the leads for a large 30 HP/440AC motor were fed by separate wires,
each in their own metal conduit (don't ask me why...).

..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Teitelbaum" <bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by Brian Teitelbaum
Hey Darryl,
You said - " never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as
this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing
voltage drop and heating"
Is that true even for non-ferrous metals, like aluminum, or say, gold?
Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher DC
resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC resistance the
same value as DC resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know the
conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it is
important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as
this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing
voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-03 20:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wind-sun.com
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
The practical effects of running a single wire in 98% of the systems
that any solar installers will ever see is probably just about zero,
and it also only applies to AC currents (or rapidly varying DC, which
is not common).
Won't make a noticeable difference in the small stuff in this industry
most all of the time.

Brian Teitelbaum said:

Is that true even for non-ferrous metals, like aluminum, or say, gold?


Yes. Anything that conducts electricity would be susceptible to eddy
currents. (IF it ~did~ create a problem that is)
I don't know why anyone here would normally run just one wire through a
box or conduit though.

boB
Post by Wind-sun.com
The only time I have ever actually seen this happen was several years
ago when the leads for a large 30 HP/440AC motor were fed by separate
wires, each in their own metal conduit (don't ask me why...).
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..................................................................................................
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Teitelbaum"
<bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by Brian Teitelbaum
Hey Darryl,
You said - " never allow a single wire to pass through a metal
surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into
the metal causing voltage drop and heating"
Is that true even for non-ferrous metals, like aluminum, or say, gold?
Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Darryl Thayer
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher
DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC
resistance the same value as DC resistance to within the table
accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know
the conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it
is important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal
surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into
the metal causing voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: >>
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
Post by Darryl Thayer
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Post by Darryl Thayer
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-03 20:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Darryl,

Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be true??

Matt
Post by Darryl Thayer
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-03 21:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by jay peltz
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be true??
Matt
The reason that stranded is higher resistance than solid is that there
is more "air" in between the strands. Solid
wire doesn't have that empty space. It's harder to maneuver though and
can be harder on breaker studs for the
big stuff. Stranded doesn't have any (or VERY little) effect on AC
since the strands are not normally insulated
from each other.

However, multiple strands of insulated magnet wire in transformer
manufacturing and other things DO have positive effects
and is done all the time to reduce high frequency effects.

boB
Post by jay peltz
Post by Darryl Thayer
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating.
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2279 - Release Date: 08/03/09 05:57:00
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-03 20:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Yes, all metals (the conductive nature of metals allows currents to flow in the presence of changing magnetic fields), this is enhanced when ferro magnetic metals are involved. I have seen it a few times when AC currents are involved. This is not the case with DC, but we are not really working with DC when the input to an inverter is involved. It is a pulsing DC or it can be thought of as a DC and an AC added together.

However I am not aware of how large an effect it is in most Solar circuits. But we want to be sure our systems perform well, so watch out for it.
Darryl
From: Brian Teitelbaum <bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:12 PM
Hey Darryl,
You said - " never allow a single wire to pass through a
metal surface as this will induce eddy currents and magnetic
effects into the metal causing voltage drop and heating"
Is that true even for non-ferrous metals, like aluminum, or
say, gold?
Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire has about
2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9 table 8, and
that for AC resistance the same value as DC resistance to
within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect.? With AC it is important to never allow
a single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded? AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come
into
play?
Post by Darryl Thayer
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
Post by Darryl Thayer
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we
will
do.
Post by Darryl Thayer
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs
stranded? AC
vs DC
Post by Darryl Thayer
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
Post by Darryl Thayer
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
Post by Darryl Thayer
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-03 21:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says, but 2% is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit hole is larger than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this?
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded? AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Joel Davidson
2009-08-04 00:31:23 UTC
Permalink
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC



Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says, but 2% is
very little. I would think that passing through a conduit hole is larger
than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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Matt Lafferty
2009-08-05 03:10:11 UTC
Permalink
RE: 2% loss over 25 years is significant

Amen. Sorta makes one wonder how they've allowed and accepted <50% efficient
combustion-cycle turbine plants all these years... That's before taking
transmission losses of minimum 8%. 24/7 x 365.

Matt Lafferty
Dave Click
2009-08-05 12:58:53 UTC
Permalink
2% loss is significant, but I think that Darryl was saying that the
resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So if you had a
3% voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you could rewire the
system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x 0.98) 2.94% at
peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW installed.

DKC

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31
Post by Joel Davidson
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says, but
2% is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit hole is
larger than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Joel Davidson
2009-08-05 18:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Dave, I agree. but are we talking about 2% voltage drop, resistance, or
power loss?

What I got from this discussion about solid vs. stranded wire (1) use solid
copper wire and (2) keep I2R losses low and (3) if you use stranded wire, be
very diligent when tightening connectors. Anything else?

Wrenches make design compromises every day. My 11 year old grid-tied system
is an example:
- Siemens SP70 modules because SP75s were unavailable.
- Trace SW4048 at 65% efficiency because higher efficiency non-battery
inverters were less reliable.
- Low-rise, low-tilt angle array because Culver City did not allow PV arrays
to be visible from the street.
- And now, making improvements on a system that is working flawlessly for
almost 100,000 hours does not make cost vs. benefits sense.

Joel Davidson


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Click" <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by Dave Click
2% loss is significant, but I think that Darryl was saying that the
resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So if you had a 3%
voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you could rewire the
system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x 0.98) 2.94% at
peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW installed.
DKC
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31
Post by Joel Davidson
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer"
<daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says, but 2%
is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit hole is
larger than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2279 - Release
Date: 08/03/09 05:57:00
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Dave Click
2009-08-05 19:41:58 UTC
Permalink
are we talking about 2% voltage drop, resistance, or power loss?
No- I was talking about the 2% difference in resistance between two
wires, which is not the same thing as 2% voltage drop. What I got from
this discussion was that solid copper wire will help your voltage drop
by about 0.05%, a marginal benefit outweighed by the frustration of
exclusively using solid wire for wiring.

And sure, keeping losses low and not breaking wire strands at connectors
are important too. I did an inspection a few weeks ago where we opened
up the panelboard and the original contractor for the building had
broken off 3 strands from a #2/0 cable to fit it in the main lugs. Yikes!

DKC

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV System Design Compromises (was solid vs
stranded AC vs DC)
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/5 14:30
Dave, I agree. but are we talking about 2% voltage drop, resistance, or
power loss?
What I got from this discussion about solid vs. stranded wire (1) use
solid copper wire and (2) keep I2R losses low and (3) if you use
stranded wire, be very diligent when tightening connectors. Anything else?
Wrenches make design compromises every day. My 11 year old grid-tied
- Siemens SP70 modules because SP75s were unavailable.
- Trace SW4048 at 65% efficiency because higher efficiency non-battery
inverters were less reliable.
- Low-rise, low-tilt angle array because Culver City did not allow PV
arrays to be visible from the street.
- And now, making improvements on a system that is working flawlessly
for almost 100,000 hours does not make cost vs. benefits sense.
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Click" <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by Dave Click
2% loss is significant, but I think that Darryl was saying that the
resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So if you had a
3% voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you could rewire
the system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x 0.98)
2.94% at peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW installed.
DKC
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31
Post by Joel Davidson
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer"
<daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says,
but 2% is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit
hole is larger than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Matt Tritt
2009-08-05 20:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Joel,

Changing any wires connected to a SW to solid core would be virtually
impossible because of the almost impossible to connect with stranded
wire connection blocks. Remember how ^$*! tight the spaces are in those
babies? Living with a marginally relevant inefficiency from stranded
seems a low price to pay for being able to connect the bits and pieces
to each other. Non?

Matt T
Post by Joel Davidson
Dave, I agree. but are we talking about 2% voltage drop, resistance,
or power loss?
What I got from this discussion about solid vs. stranded wire (1) use
solid copper wire and (2) keep I2R losses low and (3) if you use
stranded wire, be very diligent when tightening connectors. Anything
else?
Wrenches make design compromises every day. My 11 year old grid-tied
- Siemens SP70 modules because SP75s were unavailable.
- Trace SW4048 at 65% efficiency because higher efficiency non-battery
inverters were less reliable.
- Low-rise, low-tilt angle array because Culver City did not allow PV
arrays to be visible from the street.
- And now, making improvements on a system that is working flawlessly
for almost 100,000 hours does not make cost vs. benefits sense.
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Click" <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Post by Dave Click
2% loss is significant, but I think that Darryl was saying that the
resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So if you had
a 3% voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you could rewire
the system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x 0.98)
2.94% at peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW installed.
DKC
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31
Post by Joel Davidson
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer"
<daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says,
but 2% is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit
hole is larger than that.
Darryl
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??
Matt
I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9
This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?
Well there is very slight differences between AC
and
Dc But this
difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will
do.
Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
stranded or
solid wire for DC or AC.
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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Joel Davidson
2009-08-05 21:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Matt, Right-on. I meant solid smaller gauge wire and multi-stranded larger gauge wire as compared to finely-stranded wire.

Dave, Almost every electrician has nipped off a strand or more to get a conductor to fit into undersized connectors. Older model charge controllers and inverters were notorious for undersized connectors. Some electricians are very skilled at fitting lugs and/or putting tape over "down-sized" wire ends. I'm not justifying this practice. Just reminding manufacturers to provide big enough connectors that are securely fastened to their equipment (not tacked onto a circuit board) and to provide practical strain-reliefs.

Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Tritt
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV System Design Compromises (was solid vs stranded AC vs DC)


Joel,

Changing any wires connected to a SW to solid core would be virtually impossible because of the almost impossible to connect with stranded wire connection blocks. Remember how ^$*! tight the spaces are in those babies? Living with a marginally relevant inefficiency from stranded seems a low price to pay for being able to connect the bits and pieces to each other. Non?

Matt T

Joel Davidson wrote:
Dave, I agree. but are we talking about 2% voltage drop, resistance, or power loss?

What I got from this discussion about solid vs. stranded wire (1) use solid copper wire and (2) keep I2R losses low and (3) if you use stranded wire, be very diligent when tightening connectors. Anything else?

Wrenches make design compromises every day. My 11 year old grid-tied system is an example:
- Siemens SP70 modules because SP75s were unavailable.
- Trace SW4048 at 65% efficiency because higher efficiency non-battery inverters were less reliable.
- Low-rise, low-tilt angle array because Culver City did not allow PV arrays to be visible from the street.
- And now, making improvements on a system that is working flawlessly for almost 100,000 hours does not make cost vs. benefits sense.

Joel Davidson


----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Click" <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC



2% loss is significant, but I think that Darryl was saying that the resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So if you had a 3% voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you could rewire the system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x 0.98) 2.94% at peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW installed.

DKC

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31


2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is significant.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC



Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians handbook says, but 2% is very little. I would think that passing through a conduit hole is larger than that.
Darryl

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net> wrote:


From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM






Darryl,



Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid core is
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this possibly be
true??



Matt



Darryl Thayer wrote:

I looked in the code book and found stranded wire
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid, Chapter 9
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value as DC
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9 Table 9

This table points out that for AC resistance it is
important to know the conduit system, as the reactance will
have an effect. With AC it is important to never allow a
single wire to pass through a metal surface as this will
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the metal
causing voltage drop and heating.

--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
wrote:



From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,

But what are the differences and when do they come into
play?




On Jul 31, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:



Well there is very slight differences between AC
and


Dc But this


difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we will


do.


Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>


wrote:



From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC



vs DC



To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,

I'm trying to understand this wire issue.

Whether or not there is a difference between



stranded or



solid wire for DC or AC.

Any takers on this one?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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Jeff Yago
2009-08-04 03:52:17 UTC
Permalink
I just had this "debate" with a reader of one of my articles who was a ham radio operator and a do-it-yourself solar homeowner who insisted stranded wire had a substantial lower resistance than solid wire for DC wiring. After lots of research I discovered he was getting this from his ham radio text books. It seems for antenna and speaker wire applications, as you increase the frequency of a current flow, the current starts to move out onto the surface of the wire, so the more strands of wire you have, the lower the resistance AT HIGHER FREQUENCIES.

I learned that below 0.1 Mhz, this higher voltage loss does not come into play since DC electricity has a frequency of 0.0. I think there is basically no differnce for a given current and voltage using stranded or solid wire for DC appications. However, when you have long runs of DC wire (like to a large ground mounted array), if you allow the + and - wire to not be banded together in the trench, you will create a long narrow "capacitor" which can induce all kinds of resistance to power flow, not to mention reek havoc on nearby radios, and this may be more of a problem with DC than AC.

I think many of these do-it-yourself types don't realize when they are wiring up some 12 volt DC solar equipment that the current for the same 120 VAC load will now be 10 times higher at 12 volts DC, and this is causing them to think the wire has a higher resistance when running DC through it and do not understand how the current drastically increases at the lower voltage and any long wire run will have a major voltage drop at low voltage.

Jeff Yago

_____________________________________________________________
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
jay peltz
2009-08-11 16:35:31 UTC
Permalink
HI All,

For plug in watts/PF meters is there a better or more accurate one
that anyone recommends?

I've tried the Kill-a-watt and seems to work and be pretty accurate,
but haven't compared it to many others.

I've been testing some CFLS vs LED and the PF is way better on the LED.
For us off grid folks its pretty interesting.

thanks,

jay
robert ellison
2009-08-12 13:59:42 UTC
Permalink
I have used the Brand power meter until someone absconded with it. I
understood that the original "Kill a watt" meter was real inaccurate. So i
have stayed away from it.
Might that have changed?

Bob
Post by jay peltz
HI All,
For plug in watts/PF meters is there a better or more accurate one that
anyone recommends?
I've tried the Kill-a-watt and seems to work and be pretty accurate, but
haven't compared it to many others.
I've been testing some CFLS vs LED and the PF is way better on the LED.
For us off grid folks its pretty interesting.
thanks,
jay
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Drake Chamberlin
2009-08-20 03:21:41 UTC
Permalink
One question about power factor:

We know it is the ratio of the real power to the apparent power, and
that most utility meters only register real power (watts). Reactive
power doesn't dissipate as heat like power loss through a resistor.

The question is: What is the quantitative effect that reactive power
has on a battery bank that is feeding loads through an inverter? If
the power factor is 56% (like a refrigerator that I want to replace)
does that mean that only 56% of the power being drawn from the
batteries is being used to power the refrigerator?. If so, where
does the rest of the power go?

Thanks,

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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boB Gudgel
2009-08-20 04:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Drake Chamberlin
We know it is the ratio of the real power to the apparent power, and
that most utility meters only register real power (watts). Reactive
power doesn't dissipate as heat like power loss through a resistor.
The question is: What is the quantitative effect that reactive power
has on a battery bank that is feeding loads through an inverter? If
the power factor is 56% (like a refrigerator that I want to replace)
does that mean that only 56% of the power being drawn from the
batteries is being used to power the refrigerator?. If so, where does
the rest of the power go?
If you just take your meter and multiply Volts X Amps, that's VA, or
apparent power. If it's all real, then it's like the resistor and gets
counted by
the utility meter. Some turns into heat (resistor) and some gets some
real work done.

The rest, is VA but is Reactive and is VA Reactive or VARs.

So, the reactive current that comes out of the batteries, into the
inverter out the AC output, comes BACK into the battery. (this is for
an inverter
that has the ripple reflecting back into the battery)

So, your batter kind of discharges and then recharges 120 times per
second for a 60 Hz system.
So, where does the power go ? The real power gets used of course and
most of the rest, the VARs gets put back into
the battery. HOWEVER, since the transformer and wire and FETs and
transormer and stuff have resistance, some of those VARS get turned
into heat by that inefficiency, or I-squared-R losses. That's one
reason why low power factor isn't so good.

Does that kind of make sense ?

boB
Post by Drake Chamberlin
Thanks,
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-05 13:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Thanks DAve yes I meant 2% more for stranded than the voltage drop for solid. So the number is very small. Your example was right on.

Darryl
From: Dave Click <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:58 AM
2% loss is significant, but I think
that Darryl was saying that the
resistance for stranded wire was 2% higher than solid. So
if you had a
3% voltage drop in your system with stranded wire, you
could rewire the
system with solid wire and have a voltage drop of (3% x
0.98) 2.94% at
peak production; that's less than 1 kWh/yr per kW
installed.
DKC
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded? AC vs
DC
From: Joel? Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/3 20:31
Post by Joel Davidson
2% loss from any resistance source over 25 years is
significant.
Post by Joel Davidson
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Thayer"
<daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
Post by Joel Davidson
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
Yes, that is what the code book and my electricians
handbook says, but
Post by Joel Davidson
2% is very little.? I would think that passing
through a conduit hole is
Post by Joel Davidson
larger than that.
Darryl
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
From: Matt Tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded?
AC vs DC
Post by Joel Davidson
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:49 PM
Darryl,
Say what?! This would seem to indicate that solid
core is
Post by Joel Davidson
actually
better for DC than stranded wire. Can this
possibly be
Post by Joel Davidson
true??
Matt
???I looked in the code book and
found stranded wire
Post by Joel Davidson
has about 2% higher DC resistance than solid,
Chapter 9
Post by Joel Davidson
table 8, and that for AC resistance the same value
as DC
Post by Joel Davidson
resistance to within the table accuracy Chapter 9
Table 9
Post by Joel Davidson
This table points out that for AC resistance it
is
Post by Joel Davidson
important to know the conduit system, as the
reactance will
Post by Joel Davidson
have an effect.? With AC it is important to
never allow a
Post by Joel Davidson
single wire to pass through a metal surface as
this will
Post by Joel Davidson
induce eddy currents and magnetic effects into the
metal
Post by Joel Davidson
causing voltage drop and heating.
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
? ???From: jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded?
AC vs DC
Post by Joel Davidson
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi Darryl,
But what are the differences and when do they come
into
Post by Joel Davidson
play?
? ? ???Well there is very
slight differences between AC
Post by Joel Davidson
and
? ???Dc But this
? ? ???difference
is so slight that it has no effect on anything we
will
Post by Joel Davidson
? ???do.
? ? ???Darryl
--- On Fri, 7/31/09, jay peltz <jay at asis.com>
? ? ? ???From: jay
peltz <jay at asis.com>
Post by Joel Davidson
Subject: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC
? ???vs DC
"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Post by Joel Davidson
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:00 PM
HI All,
I'm trying to understand this wire issue.
Whether or not there is a difference between
? ???stranded or
? ? ? ???solid wire
for DC or AC.
Post by Joel Davidson
Any takers on this one?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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?
???_______________________________________________
Post by Joel Davidson
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Post by Joel Davidson
Date: 08/03/09 05:57:00
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Darryl Thayer
2009-08-05 14:09:34 UTC
Permalink
hi all
In minnesota we get about 1400 Wh/Wp/yr (no losses) , if a system is designed for 3% voltage drop loss, this is 42 Wh/yr/Wp or 1050 Wh/Wp for 25 yrs. if the wire is solid instead of stranded this saves 1Wh/yr/Wp or about 25 Wh/Wp for 25 years. In terms of money if the customer is paying 10.00/watt installed and his electric rate is 40 cents/kwh he saves 0.0004$/year/Wp more if you use solid wire. That's 40 cents per 1kW installed.
Small indeed
Darryl
From: Matt Lafferty <gilligan06 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solid vs stranded AC vs DC
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 10:10 PM
RE: 2% loss over 25 years is
significant
Amen. Sorta makes one wonder how they've allowed and
accepted <50% efficient
combustion-cycle turbine plants all these years... That's
before taking
transmission losses of minimum 8%. 24/7 x 365.
Matt Lafferty
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Peter Parrish
2009-08-05 20:45:35 UTC
Permalink
When we do ampacity calculations, we always use Table 310.16 in Section
310.15 for wire in raceway (EMT, PVC, FMC, LNFC, LMFC), and MC cable. Of
course we use Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) in a raceway or cable with more than
three conductors.

A colleague asked me about the applicability of table B.310.1. It would seem
to apply to 2-3 conductors within an overall covering (multi-conductor
cable) in raceway in free air. Would MC apply? But what in the world is a
"cable, in raceway, in free air"? I'm usually pretty good in parsing this
stuff, but this stumps me.


- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
Dave Click
2009-08-06 15:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Here's a cable that may use B.310.1, which is probably overkill for most
of our work:
http://www.amercable.com/doc/catalogs/VFDCables.pdf

MC cable requires you to use Table 310.16 for your 600V wires, with a
few caveats (330.80)

That being said, not sure what "raceway in free air" means. Maybe
they're trying to draw a distinction between that and underground ducts
(e.g. Table B.310.5)

Here's the 330.80 section:
***
330.80 Ampacity.
The ampacity of Type MC cable shall be determined in accordance with
310.15 or 310.60 for 14 AWG and larger conductors and in accordance with
Table 402.5 for 18 AWG and 16 AWG conductors. The installation shall not
exceed the temperature ratings of terminations and equipment.
(A) Type MC Cable Installed in Cable Tray. The ampacities for Type MC
cable installed in cable tray shall be determined in accordance with
392.11 and 392.13.
(B) Single Type MC Conductors Grouped Together. Where single Type MC
conductors are grouped together in a triangular or square configuration
and installed on a messenger or exposed with a maintained free airspace
of not less than 2.15 times one conductor diameter (2.15 ? O.D.) of the
largest conductor contained within the configuration and adjacent
conductor configurations or cables, the ampacity of the conductors shall
not exceed the allowable ampacities in the following tables:
(1) Table 310.20 for conductors rated 0 through 2000 volts
(2) Table 310.67 and Table 310.68 for conductors rated over 2000 volts
***

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC Art 310 Ampacity
From: Peter Parrish <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/5 16:45
Post by Peter Parrish
When we do ampacity calculations, we always use Table 310.16 in Section
310.15 for wire in raceway (EMT, PVC, FMC, LNFC, LMFC), and MC cable. Of
course we use Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) in a raceway or cable with more than
three conductors.
A colleague asked me about the applicability of table B.310.1. It would seem
to apply to 2-3 conductors within an overall covering (multi-conductor
cable) in raceway in free air. Would MC apply? But what in the world is a
"cable, in raceway, in free air"? I'm usually pretty good in parsing this
stuff, but this stumps me.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
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Exeltech
2009-08-12 15:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Robert,

Exeltech purchased two cartons of the Kill-A-Watt meters to use for relative power tests (pacing off the room for area sort of thing).? We found them to be accurate within 2-3% when compared to our multi-thousand dollar power meters that we calibrate to NIST standards every year. We've not done exhaustive comparisons .. but for the price, we do find them acceptable.

Dan




--- On Wed, 8/12/09, robert ellison <reellison at gmail.com> wrote:

From: robert ellison <reellison at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] power factor
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:59 AM

I?have used the Brand power meter until someone absconded with it. I ?understood that the original "Kill a watt" meter was real inaccurate. So i have stayed away from it.
Might that have changed?
?
Bob?


On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 12:35 PM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:

HI All,

For plug in watts/PF meters is there a better or more accurate one that anyone recommends?


I've tried the Kill-a-watt and seems to work and be pretty accurate, but haven't compared it to many others.

I've been testing some CFLS vs LED and the PF is way better on the LED.
For us off grid folks its pretty interesting.


thanks,

jay




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