Discussion:
SWH data logging
(too old to reply)
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
2008-11-14 14:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.

Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Glenn Burt
2008-11-14 23:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

IMC Instruments makes a few differential controllers that have the ability
to provide data output for logging & analysis.
I have installed one, but have not yet done any data logging; it looks
promising.

http://www.imcinstruments.com/Home/Eagle-2%20Group%206-17-08w.pdf

YMMV

Regards,

Glenn Burt
Technical Specialist
Renewable Power Systems, LLC
PO Box 967
Averill Park, NY 12018
V: 518-674-5808
C: 518-810-3174
F: 518-514-1175
E: gburt at RPSPower.com
www.RPSpower.com



-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly
Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:51 AM
To: RE Wrenches listserve
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWH data logging

Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.

Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com




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Carl Adams
2008-11-15 03:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only downside
is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in the kit
to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT line). I
guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a standard
option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.

Cheers
Carl


On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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bill roush
2008-11-15 03:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Anyone using these to receive REC's Renewable Energy Credits?
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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_______________________________________________
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--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
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Carl Adams
2008-11-15 14:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

There is another metering system in use by Lakeland ELectric. The meters
are from ABB (similar to the Metrima in concept). I feel sure Lakeland is
collecting RECs based on these meters. Here is a link to a paper presented
at the ASES solar conference last summer in CLeveland.
http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/research/documents/technical_papers/ASES_Cleveland_final.doc

Cheers
Carl
Post by bill roush
Anyone using these to receive REC's Renewable Energy Credits?
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
_______________________________________________
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Carl Adams
2008-11-15 14:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

There is another metering system in use by Lakeland ELectric. The meters
are from ABB (similar to the Metrima in concept). I feel sure Lakeland is
collecting RECs based on these meters. Here is a link to a paper presented
at the ASES solar conference last summer in CLeveland.
http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/research/documents/technical_papers/ASES_Cleveland_final.doc

Cheers
Carl
Post by bill roush
Anyone using these to receive REC's Renewable Energy Credits?
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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bill roush
2008-11-15 03:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Anyone using these to receive REC's Renewable Energy Credits?
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
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Karl Schwingel
2008-11-15 23:37:58 UTC
Permalink
there may be a unit on the market soon from APRS (aprsworld.com) that
is a data logger, and differentail controller. it'll run on grid power
or DC from a pv pump driving panel.

the need right now is for a good reasonably priced (probably pulse
style) flow meter.

no word on the timeline of the product.

vernier also makes some nice little data loggers, but I've no real
information to offer on them.

Karl
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Karl Schwingel
NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer
NorthWind Renewable Energy LLC

PO Box 723 Stevens Point, WI 54481
Karl at Northwindre.com
Cell: 715 209 0446
Fax : 715 952 4501


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Nicholas Ponzio
2008-11-18 14:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

The new Delta-T Pro controllers from Heliodyne have built-in networking
capability (WiFi or Ethernet.) Retail is around $500.
http://www.heliodyne.com/products_systems/control_units/delta_t_pro.html
I have one system up and running with the WiFi model for about 4 months
now. No problems yet. There's no display on the controller itself and
the software user interface is pretty rudimentary but it gets the job done.

Best of luck.
-Nik
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-18 22:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Nik,
Thanks for the info. I was just about to ask if anyone has used the
Heliodyne Delta T-Pro....

Where did you source it from? Gro has given me an expected price of ~$300
(but don't have 'em). The cost of the digital flow meter/temp gauge is on
top of that. Is the digital flow meter necessary, or can you input a flow
rate from an existing analog flow gauge?

Seems like a good option for data logging. Is the software MS Windows -
only?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
The new Delta-T Pro controllers from Heliodyne have built-in networking
capability (WiFi or Ethernet.) Retail is around $500.
http://www.heliodyne.com/products_systems/control_units/delta_t_pro.html
I have one system up and running with the WiFi model for about 4 months
now. No problems yet. There's no display on the controller itself and
the software user interface is pretty rudimentary but it gets the job done.
Best of luck.
-Nik
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-19 00:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Carl,
Thanks for the info. Is data logging/collection possible with the Metrima
meters? There is a lot of information ? in a language I don?t understand ?
in the ?communication? section of the link you provided.

-Kelly
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit comes
with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out TCT
Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only downside is
that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in the kit to
drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT line). I guess
if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a standard option.
Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to adjustment for
offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot water temperature ( 2
- 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set point accordingly. I
like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of energy delivered by the
SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger units are available for
higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
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August Goers
2008-11-19 17:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar
Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is
a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in
combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser
against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation
in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally
rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover
the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and
inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps,
heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for
no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including
any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and
any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially
relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com <http://www.luminalt.com/>

august at luminalt.com



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Mark Frye
2008-11-19 17:05:22 UTC
Permalink
August,

I don't have connections very high in the CSI groups, but last year I asked
a PG&E CSI Project Manager about this.

I asked what their position would be if water was leaking into the living
room but the meter was running backwards.

He replied that such a situation would not be the concern of PG&E.

Take with a grain of salt.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:01 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation



Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar
Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is
a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in
combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser
against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation
in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally
rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover
the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and
inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps,
heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for
no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including
any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and
any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially
relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com <http://www.luminalt.com/>

august at luminalt.com



-------------- next part --------------
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Aram Alexander
2008-11-19 18:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Re: [RE-wrenches] SWH data loggingGood day folks,

In California, as a Lic. Contractor you are responsible if you make changes to an existing structure. Now if you were to sub out the roof penetrations to a Lic. roofing contractor you could pass that responsibility to them. But you as the Solar contractor would be in essence the General for that project and would be responsible to have the sub fix the potential problem.

Example, you just had your roof, reroofed by a lic. roofing company, and then you hire a solar company to install a solar system on that roof, and god forbid something happens and a leak is caused and the water ruins the family heirloom in the house, who do you think is going to be responsible ? The last person that touch it, that is how the courts will see it.

It is the same thing in reference to the main service and any subpanels we touch, we could be responsible even if prior work was done incorrectly, you will be responsible to fix it.

So anyone that does not take that serious is making a big mistake..... We as an industry can not take this lightly, solar systems are inherently robust so it could take a long time before issues arise from a bad install. So taking all aspect of the install to heart and using the correct products and techniques to produce a finished product is what all solar contractors need to keep in mind.

Now as far as the 10 year warranty, "at no cost to the customer", that is all aspects of the system. This is unheard of in anything we as humans have to deal with in life..... 10 years folks, a lot can happen.

So take it very serious,
Aram
Aram A. Alexander
Design Engineer

General & Electrical Contractor Lic.750852



aram at aramsolar.com
Mobile: 209-649-4204-Best
Main Office Tel: (866) 6 SOLAR 6
Fax: (800) 852-8870



"Excellence is never an accident, it is the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision
to see obstacles as opportunities."

www.aramsolar.com
----- Original Message -----
From: August Goers
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation


Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps, heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com

august at luminalt.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

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http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

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Mark Frye
2008-11-19 19:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Aram,

We requirements imposed by two seperate authorities.

The obligations of contractors to stand behnd their works flows for state
contracting laws (generally one year or as specified contractually).

The obligation to insure power production at 85% of rated capacity for 10
years flows from the CSI program.

So what are the real legal obligations (if enforced) that apply to what?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram
Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation
Importance: High


Good day folks,

In California, as a Lic. Contractor you are responsible if you make changes
to an existing structure. Now if you were to sub out the roof penetrations
to a Lic. roofing contractor you could pass that responsibility to them. But
you as the Solar contractor would be in essence the General for that project
and would be responsible to have the sub fix the potential problem.

Example, you just had your roof, reroofed by a lic. roofing company, and
then you hire a solar company to install a solar system on that roof, and
god forbid something happens and a leak is caused and the water ruins the
family heirloom in the house, who do you think is going to be responsible ?
The last person that touch it, that is how the courts will see it.

It is the same thing in reference to the main service and any subpanels we
touch, we could be responsible even if prior work was done incorrectly, you
will be responsible to fix it.

So anyone that does not take that serious is making a big mistake..... We as
an industry can not take this lightly, solar systems are inherently robust
so it could take a long time before issues arise from a bad install. So
taking all aspect of the install to heart and using the correct products and
techniques to produce a finished product is what all solar contractors need
to keep in mind.

Now as far as the 10 year warranty, "at no cost to the customer", that is
all aspects of the system. This is unheard of in anything we as humans have
to deal with in life..... 10 years folks, a lot can happen.

So take it very serious,
Aram

Aram A. Alexander
Design Engineer

General & Electrical Contractor Lic.750852



aram at aramsolar.com
Mobile: 209-649-4204-Best
Main Office Tel: (866) 6 SOLAR 6
Fax: (800) 852-8870



"Excellence is never an accident, it is the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision
to see obstacles as opportunities."

<http://www.aramsolar.com/> www.aramsolar.com
-------------- next part --------------
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Mark Frye
2008-11-19 19:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Aram,

We requirements imposed by two seperate authorities.

The obligations of contractors to stand behnd their works flows for state
contracting laws (generally one year or as specified contractually).

The obligation to insure power production at 85% of rated capacity for 10
years flows from the CSI program.

So what are the real legal obligations (if enforced) that apply to what?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram
Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation
Importance: High


Good day folks,

In California, as a Lic. Contractor you are responsible if you make changes
to an existing structure. Now if you were to sub out the roof penetrations
to a Lic. roofing contractor you could pass that responsibility to them. But
you as the Solar contractor would be in essence the General for that project
and would be responsible to have the sub fix the potential problem.

Example, you just had your roof, reroofed by a lic. roofing company, and
then you hire a solar company to install a solar system on that roof, and
god forbid something happens and a leak is caused and the water ruins the
family heirloom in the house, who do you think is going to be responsible ?
The last person that touch it, that is how the courts will see it.

It is the same thing in reference to the main service and any subpanels we
touch, we could be responsible even if prior work was done incorrectly, you
will be responsible to fix it.

So anyone that does not take that serious is making a big mistake..... We as
an industry can not take this lightly, solar systems are inherently robust
so it could take a long time before issues arise from a bad install. So
taking all aspect of the install to heart and using the correct products and
techniques to produce a finished product is what all solar contractors need
to keep in mind.

Now as far as the 10 year warranty, "at no cost to the customer", that is
all aspects of the system. This is unheard of in anything we as humans have
to deal with in life..... 10 years folks, a lot can happen.

So take it very serious,
Aram

Aram A. Alexander
Design Engineer

General & Electrical Contractor Lic.750852



aram at aramsolar.com
Mobile: 209-649-4204-Best
Main Office Tel: (866) 6 SOLAR 6
Fax: (800) 852-8870



"Excellence is never an accident, it is the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision
to see obstacles as opportunities."

<http://www.aramsolar.com/> www.aramsolar.com
-------------- next part --------------
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Mark Frye
2008-11-19 17:05:22 UTC
Permalink
August,

I don't have connections very high in the CSI groups, but last year I asked
a PG&E CSI Project Manager about this.

I asked what their position would be if water was leaking into the living
room but the meter was running backwards.

He replied that such a situation would not be the concern of PG&E.

Take with a grain of salt.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:01 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation



Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar
Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is
a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in
combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser
against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation
in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally
rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover
the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and
inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps,
heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for
no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including
any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and
any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially
relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com <http://www.luminalt.com/>

august at luminalt.com



-------------- next part --------------
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Aram Alexander
2008-11-19 18:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Re: [RE-wrenches] SWH data loggingGood day folks,

In California, as a Lic. Contractor you are responsible if you make changes to an existing structure. Now if you were to sub out the roof penetrations to a Lic. roofing contractor you could pass that responsibility to them. But you as the Solar contractor would be in essence the General for that project and would be responsible to have the sub fix the potential problem.

Example, you just had your roof, reroofed by a lic. roofing company, and then you hire a solar company to install a solar system on that roof, and god forbid something happens and a leak is caused and the water ruins the family heirloom in the house, who do you think is going to be responsible ? The last person that touch it, that is how the courts will see it.

It is the same thing in reference to the main service and any subpanels we touch, we could be responsible even if prior work was done incorrectly, you will be responsible to fix it.

So anyone that does not take that serious is making a big mistake..... We as an industry can not take this lightly, solar systems are inherently robust so it could take a long time before issues arise from a bad install. So taking all aspect of the install to heart and using the correct products and techniques to produce a finished product is what all solar contractors need to keep in mind.

Now as far as the 10 year warranty, "at no cost to the customer", that is all aspects of the system. This is unheard of in anything we as humans have to deal with in life..... 10 years folks, a lot can happen.

So take it very serious,
Aram
Aram A. Alexander
Design Engineer

General & Electrical Contractor Lic.750852



aram at aramsolar.com
Mobile: 209-649-4204-Best
Main Office Tel: (866) 6 SOLAR 6
Fax: (800) 852-8870



"Excellence is never an accident, it is the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision
to see obstacles as opportunities."

www.aramsolar.com
----- Original Message -----
From: August Goers
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA CSI warranty interpretation


Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps, heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com

august at luminalt.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

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www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

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www.members.re-wrenches.org

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bill roush
2008-11-20 00:34:57 UTC
Permalink
What about this company?

Please contact us at:

Phone - 973 383 9888

FAX - 973 383 9088

Email - sales at istec-corp.com



Regards,

Peter Johnson

Istec Corporation

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Carl,
Thanks for the info. Is data logging/collection possible with the Metrima
meters? There is a lot of information ? in a language I don't understand ?
in the "communication" section of the link you provided.
-Kelly
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
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August Goers
2008-11-19 17:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi California based Wrenches,



I'm wondering how you folks are interpreting the CSI (California Solar
Initiative) warranty requirements (section 2.4 of the CSI handbook). Here is
a quote from section 2.4:



"Currently, all systems must have a minimum 10-year warranty provided in
combination by the manufacturer and installer to protect the purchaser
against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation
in electrical output of more than fifteen percent from their originally
rated electrical output during the ten-year period. The warranty must cover
the solar generating system only, including PV modules (panels) and
inverters, solar collectors, tracking mechanisms, heat exchangers, pumps,
heat driven cooling systems associated with the solar system and provide for
no-cost repair or replacement of the system or system components, including
any associated labor during the warranty period."



I've heard that some companies may not include their roof penetrations and
any associated damage caused from leakage in this 10-year warranty.



How are you folks interpreting this warranty requirement, especially
relating to roof penetrations?



Best,



August











August Goers

VP, Engineering



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

www.luminalt.com <http://www.luminalt.com/>

august at luminalt.com



-------------- next part --------------
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bill roush
2008-11-20 00:34:57 UTC
Permalink
What about this company?

Please contact us at:

Phone - 973 383 9888

FAX - 973 383 9088

Email - sales at istec-corp.com



Regards,

Peter Johnson

Istec Corporation

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Carl,
Thanks for the info. Is data logging/collection possible with the Metrima
meters? There is a lot of information ? in a language I don't understand ?
in the "communication" section of the link you provided.
-Kelly
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only
downside is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in
the kit to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT
line). I guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a
standard option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Best,
Bill Roush
Heartland Solar Energy Industries Association
www.hseia.org
Heartland Renewable Energy Society
www.heartland-res.org
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Phil Schneider
2008-11-19 16:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position".

Do other Wrenches post this plaque? Is there a way that both line AND load
terminals of this switch could be energized? (other than an inverter not
paying attention to its UL listing?)

Thanks again for your thoughts,
P.

Phil Schneider
Creative Energies
Louis Woofenden
2008-11-19 18:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Phil,

Four out of the six of utilities that we deal with here in Arizona
require an external AC disconnect, and yes, we do install the plaque.
About half of the utilities explicitly require it, the other half don't.

I agree that is a confusing label, possibly leading service personnel to
believe a mostly non-existent danger exists. Then again, what do the
laws of physics and probabilities have to do with interconnection issues?

Best,
Louis Woofenden
The Solar Store
Tucson, AZ
Post by Phil Schneider
Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position"...
Jerry Caldwell
2008-11-19 19:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches;

We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up; can inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?

Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.

Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy
Jason Lombard
2008-11-19 20:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Interesting question. I know all inverter manufacturers are regulated to run
at 60hz in the US and in the case of Fronius they have less than 5% THD
(total harmonic distortion). Are they concerned with issues through the air
or power lines? The line should not effect it I imagine especially since
where the inverter(s) are mounted would not be in the same room as the
equipment. I have heard inverters compared to a washing machine as a
comparative EMF producer.
Post by Jerry Caldwell
Wrenches;
We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up; can
inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?
Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.
Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Jason Lombard CSBA
Open Hand Solar LLC.
Pecos, NM. 87552
505 795 8646
openhandsolar at gmail.com
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Christopher Freitas
2008-11-19 19:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Jerry -

I have been involved with numerous hospitals powered from various
inverters and I have never heard of any issues with operating radiology
equipment - other than the tremendous surge requirements they often
have.

I would advise putting the inverter in a location some distance from the
radiology equipment as possible - but that would apply to any electronic
devices.

Christopher





Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

cfreitas at outbackpower.com

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
Caldwell
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] radiology equipment and inverters

Wrenches;

We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up;
can inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?

Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.

Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy




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jay peltz
2008-11-20 05:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

here is along those same lines a question about line noise.


System 15kw diesel generator

4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac

3000 amp hr industrial batteries.

when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244


Symptoms.

when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot,
Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.


Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.

With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.


Any advice?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
robert ellison
2008-11-20 11:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 16:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot,
Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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robert ellison
2008-11-20 16:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62 or
63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem doing
it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see where it
settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase, just put it
back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up a
Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that have
blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem to
be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.

Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 17:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the details.

I'll let you know about how this goes.

Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as
possible.

Hope this doesn't freak him out!

jay
Post by robert ellison
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not
over 62 or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never
had a problem doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or
63 unloaded and see where it settles with a full charger load on it.
Some will not increase, just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to
crank up a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I
know people that have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they
seem to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating
myself, remember them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little
frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think
it worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs
hot, Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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robert ellison
2008-11-20 22:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Is he running anything unusual?

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62
or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem
doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see
where it settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase,
just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up
a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that
have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem to
be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 22:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Nope standard house, well standard in that is very high end.

60" plasma screen,
best of everything all that but nothing that I would call unusual?

jay

peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Is he running anything unusual?
Bob
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Post by robert ellison
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not
over 62 or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never
had a problem doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or
63 unloaded and see where it settles with a full charger load on
it. Some will not increase, just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to
crank up a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I
know people that have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they
seem to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating
myself, remember them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little
frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think
it worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20081120/20637cbb/attachment.htm>
robert ellison
2008-11-20 22:37:57 UTC
Permalink
I expect the gear will tolerate it ok, probably the gen shutting down
unexpectedly is more of a headache than the slight bump in frequency.

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Nope standard house, well standard in that is very high end.
60" plasma screen,
best of everything all that but nothing that I would call unusual?
jay
peltz power
Is he running anything unusual?
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62
or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem
doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see
where it settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase,
just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up
a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that
have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem
to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
_______________________________________________
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robert ellison
2008-11-20 22:37:57 UTC
Permalink
I expect the gear will tolerate it ok, probably the gen shutting down
unexpectedly is more of a headache than the slight bump in frequency.

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Nope standard house, well standard in that is very high end.
60" plasma screen,
best of everything all that but nothing that I would call unusual?
jay
peltz power
Is he running anything unusual?
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62
or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem
doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see
where it settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase,
just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up
a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that
have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem
to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 22:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Nope standard house, well standard in that is very high end.

60" plasma screen,
best of everything all that but nothing that I would call unusual?

jay

peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Is he running anything unusual?
Bob
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Post by robert ellison
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not
over 62 or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never
had a problem doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or
63 unloaded and see where it settles with a full charger load on
it. Some will not increase, just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to
crank up a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I
know people that have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they
seem to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating
myself, remember them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little
frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think
it worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20081120/20637cbb/attachment-0001.htm>
robert ellison
2008-11-20 22:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Is he running anything unusual?

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the details.
I'll let you know about how this goes.
Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as possible.
Hope this doesn't freak him out!
jay
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62
or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem
doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see
where it settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase,
just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up
a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that
have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem to
be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 17:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the details.

I'll let you know about how this goes.

Customer was being super careful to have it as close to 60hz as
possible.

Hope this doesn't freak him out!

jay
Post by robert ellison
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not
over 62 or 63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never
had a problem doing it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or
63 unloaded and see where it settles with a full charger load on it.
Some will not increase, just put it back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to
crank up a Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I
know people that have blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they
seem to be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating
myself, remember them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little
frequency increase.
Later,
Bob.
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think
it worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs
hot, Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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robert ellison
2008-11-20 16:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Seems that i ran it up till the charger was happy and it was not over 62 or
63 HZ. Some people on the list would scream but I never had a problem doing
it and never blew anything up. Set it for 62 or 63 unloaded and see where it
settles with a full charger load on it. Some will not increase, just put it
back where it was.
I always figured that low was worse than high. Not a good idea to crank up a
Coleman or other cheap generator and unload it fast. I know people that have
blown capacitors when they do that.
I have not had to do that with the Magnum inverter / chargers, they seem to
be happy on less amps ac input Heart Interface (dating myself, remember
them?), Trace and Outback seemed to like a little frequency increase.

Later,
Bob.
Post by jay peltz
Hi Bob,
Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 16:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

Do you have any numbers as to what the HZ where or where you think it
worked best?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
Post by robert ellison
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a
little (higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that
wouldn't light under full charger load. They did better at a
somewhat higher rmp (frequency)
Bob
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot,
Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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robert ellison
2008-11-20 11:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)

Bob
Post by jay peltz
Hi All,
here is along those same lines a question about line noise.
System 15kw diesel generator
4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac
3000 amp hr industrial batteries.
when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244
Symptoms.
when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the
house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge
makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.
Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.
With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.
Any advice?
thanks,
jay
peltz power
_______________________________________________
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jay peltz
2008-11-20 05:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

here is along those same lines a question about line noise.


System 15kw diesel generator

4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac

3000 amp hr industrial batteries.

when genny running, 59.5-60 hz
voltage 122/244


Symptoms.

when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in
the house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot,
Fridge makes more noise.
Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.


Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.

With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.


Any advice?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
Jason Lombard
2008-11-19 20:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Interesting question. I know all inverter manufacturers are regulated to run
at 60hz in the US and in the case of Fronius they have less than 5% THD
(total harmonic distortion). Are they concerned with issues through the air
or power lines? The line should not effect it I imagine especially since
where the inverter(s) are mounted would not be in the same room as the
equipment. I have heard inverters compared to a washing machine as a
comparative EMF producer.
Post by Jerry Caldwell
Wrenches;
We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up; can
inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?
Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.
Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy
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--
Jason Lombard CSBA
Open Hand Solar LLC.
Pecos, NM. 87552
505 795 8646
openhandsolar at gmail.com
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Christopher Freitas
2008-11-19 19:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Jerry -

I have been involved with numerous hospitals powered from various
inverters and I have never heard of any issues with operating radiology
equipment - other than the tremendous surge requirements they often
have.

I would advise putting the inverter in a location some distance from the
radiology equipment as possible - but that would apply to any electronic
devices.

Christopher





Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

cfreitas at outbackpower.com

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
Caldwell
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] radiology equipment and inverters

Wrenches;

We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up;
can inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?

Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.

Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy




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This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you.
Jerry Caldwell
2008-11-19 19:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches;

We're talking to a customer who is a hospital and the question came up; can inverters interfere with radiology equipment or vice-versa?

Anyone know the answer to this? Any input is appreciated.

Jerry Caldwell
Recurrent Energy
Kent Osterberg
2008-11-20 07:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Phil,

NEC 690.17 says "Where all terminals of the disconnecting means may be
energized..." It would take a pretty rare malfunction of a grid
connected inverter to energize the load terminals of the utility
disconnect. But we have some AHJs that require this label on every ac
disconnect, all the way back to the utility meter, anyway. The warning
is appropriate on the dc disconnect of almost all inverters because the
capacitors in the inverter take a few minutes to bleed off.

To me, the bigger hassle are plaques required by 705.10. Can anyone
give me a reasonable explanation for their value in a utility
interactive system? I can understand if there is a grid backup system -
emergency personnel may need to know where to turn off the backup power;
but a grid interactive inverter shuts down when there service is shut
down. It seems to me that this plaque is likely to send an emergency
responder on a wild goose chase.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position".
Do other Wrenches post this plaque? Is there a way that both line AND load
terminals of this switch could be energized? (other than an inverter not
paying attention to its UL listing?)
Thanks again for your thoughts,
P.
Phil Schneider
Creative Energies
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Louis Woofenden
2008-11-19 18:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Phil,

Four out of the six of utilities that we deal with here in Arizona
require an external AC disconnect, and yes, we do install the plaque.
About half of the utilities explicitly require it, the other half don't.

I agree that is a confusing label, possibly leading service personnel to
believe a mostly non-existent danger exists. Then again, what do the
laws of physics and probabilities have to do with interconnection issues?

Best,
Louis Woofenden
The Solar Store
Tucson, AZ
Post by Phil Schneider
Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position"...
Kent Osterberg
2008-11-20 07:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Phil,

NEC 690.17 says "Where all terminals of the disconnecting means may be
energized..." It would take a pretty rare malfunction of a grid
connected inverter to energize the load terminals of the utility
disconnect. But we have some AHJs that require this label on every ac
disconnect, all the way back to the utility meter, anyway. The warning
is appropriate on the dc disconnect of almost all inverters because the
capacitors in the inverter take a few minutes to bleed off.

To me, the bigger hassle are plaques required by 705.10. Can anyone
give me a reasonable explanation for their value in a utility
interactive system? I can understand if there is a grid backup system -
emergency personnel may need to know where to turn off the backup power;
but a grid interactive inverter shuts down when there service is shut
down. It seems to me that this plaque is likely to send an emergency
responder on a wild goose chase.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position".
Do other Wrenches post this plaque? Is there a way that both line AND load
terminals of this switch could be energized? (other than an inverter not
paying attention to its UL listing?)
Thanks again for your thoughts,
P.
Phil Schneider
Creative Energies
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Jeff Yago
2008-11-19 22:47:46 UTC
Permalink
We have a Fronius inverter system located on the interior wall of the garage next to our offices. When I get in my car or truck parked outside, and I have the radio set to a strong AM station, I can "hear" the inverter over top of the radio station while parked about 20 feet away and on the oposite side of the wall. As I pull away the radio interference drops off very quickly at about 30 feet. The sound is more like harmonic tones, not your typical static. I don't have this problem around my ol Trace SW40, but this is not intended to be a scientific study.

I have not heard of other equipment bothering inverters and would expect most of the hospital equipment to be shielded.

Jeff Yago

_____________________________________________________________
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 01:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a simple
question that doesn't seem to have been answered:

Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to the load
side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an automatic transfer
switch, when the grid is down and the generator running?

In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the generator
unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and backing up the entire
main panel.

SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will blow up. I
can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that the
voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5 minutes,
repeat. Is there anything nasty that could happen?

Thanks,
-Kelly


Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com







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Drake Chamberlin
2008-11-20 04:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator running?
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
jay peltz
2008-11-20 05:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kelly

It is an interesting issue and was just dicussing this the other day.

I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside
the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage
will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and repeat.

But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.

jay

peltz power
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator
running?
In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the
generator unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and
backing up the entire main panel.
SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will
blow up. I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the
inverter, that the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to
disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that
could happen?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design
2008-11-20 05:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but
didn't shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried
the very expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us
install a relay to tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC
reference from the SI was gone. Same situation as grid-tie really in
terms of your question.

Jeff
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
It is an interesting issue and was just dicussing this the other day.
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go
outside the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out,
voltage will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and
repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator
running?
In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the
generator unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and
backing up the entire main panel.
SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will
blow up. I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the
inverter, that the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to
disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that
could happen?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
<>sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
<mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
<http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
gosolar at villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design
2008-11-20 05:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but
didn't shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried
the very expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us
install a relay to tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC
reference from the SI was gone. Same situation as grid-tie really in
terms of your question.

Jeff
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
It is an interesting issue and was just dicussing this the other day.
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go
outside the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out,
voltage will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and
repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator
running?
In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the
generator unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and
backing up the entire main panel.
SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will
blow up. I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the
inverter, that the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to
disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that
could happen?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
<>sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
<mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
<http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
gosolar at villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Drake Chamberlin
2008-11-20 04:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator running?
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
jay peltz
2008-11-20 05:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kelly

It is an interesting issue and was just dicussing this the other day.

I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside
the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage
will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and repeat.

But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.

jay

peltz power
Post by Phil Schneider
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a
Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to
the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an
automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator
running?
In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the
generator unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and
backing up the entire main panel.
SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will
blow up. I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the
inverter, that the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to
disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that
could happen?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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I2P
2008-11-20 03:28:24 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 11/19/2008 5:25:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kelly at whidbeysunwind.com writes:

I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that the
voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat.
Is there anything nasty that could happen?






Kelly, That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with accuracy
or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not zero.

Don Loweburg
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
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Drake Chamberlin
2008-11-20 15:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Talking to SMA, during a 4248 Sunny Island installation, w/ AC
coupled Sunny Boys and a generator backup via transfer switch, I was
told that backfeed to the generator needed to be addressed. The
Sunny Island has a setting that will limit backfeed to the generator
to a value that can be set by the installer. The setup requires that
a relay in the transfer switch or generator close when the generator
is on, to send a signal to the Island. I was told that backfeed had
to be set to less than 100 watts.

SMA tech support also reported that a number of generator control
boards have been fried by inverters back feeding generators.

Drake
Post by I2P
In a message dated 11/19/2008 5:25:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that
the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5
minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that could happen?
Kelly, That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and
had no issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen
source. However, you can understand what the official position must
be. There exist gensets with accuracy or it might just happen by
chance. Low probability, but not zero.
Don Loweburg
----------
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and
the things you love. Try the new
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001>AOL.com
today!
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
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Drake Chamberlin
2008-11-20 15:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Talking to SMA, during a 4248 Sunny Island installation, w/ AC
coupled Sunny Boys and a generator backup via transfer switch, I was
told that backfeed to the generator needed to be addressed. The
Sunny Island has a setting that will limit backfeed to the generator
to a value that can be set by the installer. The setup requires that
a relay in the transfer switch or generator close when the generator
is on, to send a signal to the Island. I was told that backfeed had
to be set to less than 100 watts.

SMA tech support also reported that a number of generator control
boards have been fried by inverters back feeding generators.

Drake
Post by I2P
In a message dated 11/19/2008 5:25:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that
the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5
minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that could happen?
Kelly, That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and
had no issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen
source. However, you can understand what the official position must
be. There exist gensets with accuracy or it might just happen by
chance. Low probability, but not zero.
Don Loweburg
----------
One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and
the things you love. Try the new
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001>AOL.com
today!
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
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Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 17:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Jay, Drake, Don, Jeff & Wrenches,

The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?

We have another, similar system completed, just waiting for 2009 to
commission. So, I'd like to know if it's really needed, and the best
procedure, before investing the time and cost to go back.

There must be many Wrenches who have encountered such generator backup
systems. Come on, how many of you, besides Don, have connected the inverter
to the gen-tran main panel (with no disconnection relay) without a problem?
Anyone else had a bad experience, like Jeff?


Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the generator
voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside the window of the
inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage will them return to normal,
inverter will reconnect and repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from the grid
will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
_______________
On 11/19/08 8:52 PM, "Drake Chamberlin"
<drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Post by jay peltz
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.
_______________
Post by jay peltz
That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with
accuracy or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not zero.
Don Loweburg
___________________

On 11/19/08 9:42 PM, "Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design"
Post by jay peltz
We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but didn't
shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried the very
expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us install a relay to
tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC reference from the SI was gone.
Same situation as grid-tie really in terms of your question.
Jeff
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 17:57:06 UTC
Permalink
All,
I suppose a normally-closed relay on the inverter output, with coil
energized from the generator (i.e. It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?

-Kelly
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?
Dana Brandt
2008-11-20 20:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey Kelly,

I think that's probably the best solution. I don't think it should be
necessary with Sunny Boys in gridtied system, but it's certainly the safest
bet. I'm not sure if all SB's come with the right firmware, or if it's a
special option, but they can be programmed to allow for a wide grid
frequency window. This is used in the AC coupled arrangement with the Sunny
Island. When the Sunny Island's batteries are full it starts to raise the
grid frequency slightly. The SB's read this as an instruction to reduce
their output and pull their arrays off MPP. At a defined frequency, the SB's
shut down entirely.

So, the stories of SB's frying generators in off grid, AC coupled systems
makes me think that the tight frequency window required for grid-tied
systems had been replaced by the wider window used for communication with
the Sunny Island. It was one of the first prototypes of these systems so it
might be a little different now, but I installed a system that allowed the
SI supported grid to range from 50Hz all the way up to 54Hz before the SB's
shut down. That could allow quite a bit of backfeeding of the generator and
might explain the generators being fried in these SI/SB AC coupled systems.
I would think that with regular gridtied SB's they'd shut down before
damaging the generator.

Bottom line, though, I'd probably install the NC relay powered off the
generator input to be safe.

Dana
--
Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.com
dana at ecotechenergy.com
360.510.0433


On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
All,
I suppose a normally-closed relay on the inverter output, with coil
energized from the generator (i.e. It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?
-Kelly
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m
missing?
_______________________________________________
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List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Dana Brandt
2008-11-20 20:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey Kelly,

I think that's probably the best solution. I don't think it should be
necessary with Sunny Boys in gridtied system, but it's certainly the safest
bet. I'm not sure if all SB's come with the right firmware, or if it's a
special option, but they can be programmed to allow for a wide grid
frequency window. This is used in the AC coupled arrangement with the Sunny
Island. When the Sunny Island's batteries are full it starts to raise the
grid frequency slightly. The SB's read this as an instruction to reduce
their output and pull their arrays off MPP. At a defined frequency, the SB's
shut down entirely.

So, the stories of SB's frying generators in off grid, AC coupled systems
makes me think that the tight frequency window required for grid-tied
systems had been replaced by the wider window used for communication with
the Sunny Island. It was one of the first prototypes of these systems so it
might be a little different now, but I installed a system that allowed the
SI supported grid to range from 50Hz all the way up to 54Hz before the SB's
shut down. That could allow quite a bit of backfeeding of the generator and
might explain the generators being fried in these SI/SB AC coupled systems.
I would think that with regular gridtied SB's they'd shut down before
damaging the generator.

Bottom line, though, I'd probably install the NC relay powered off the
generator input to be safe.

Dana
--
Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.com
dana at ecotechenergy.com
360.510.0433


On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
All,
I suppose a normally-closed relay on the inverter output, with coil
energized from the generator (i.e. It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?
-Kelly
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m
missing?
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 22:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dana,
I?m hearing that it ?should? be OK, but to CYA install a relay.

We just secured a third such system ? this one with the generator and
transfer switch 200 feet away from the inverter. Installing a relay on this
one would mean 200 feet of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or,
maybe a wireless connection......? This one is a small array (1.9 kW) and a
large genny (~20kW), so I?m inclined to think of the PV (if it even syncs
with the generator) as offsetting the house load, and not capable of messing
with the genny. I hope that?s not just wishful thinking :)

Thanks for the explanation.
-Kelly
Post by Dana Brandt
Hey Kelly,
I think that's probably the best solution. I don't think it should be
necessary with Sunny Boys in gridtied system, but it's certainly the safest
bet. I'm not sure if all SB's come with the right firmware, or if it's a
special option, but they can be programmed to allow for a wide grid frequency
window. This is used in the AC coupled arrangement with the Sunny Island. When
the Sunny Island's batteries are full it starts to raise the grid frequency
slightly. The SB's read this as an instruction to reduce their output and pull
their arrays off MPP. At a defined frequency, the SB's shut down entirely.
So, the stories of SB's frying generators in off grid, AC coupled systems
makes me think that the tight frequency window required for grid-tied systems
had been replaced by the wider window used for communication with the Sunny
Island. It was one of the first prototypes of these systems so it might be a
little different now, but I installed a system that allowed the SI supported
grid to range from 50Hz all the way up to 54Hz before the SB's shut down. That
could allow quite a bit of backfeeding of the generator and might explain the
generators being fried in these SI/SB AC coupled systems. I would think that
with regular gridtied SB's they'd shut down before damaging the generator.
Bottom line, though, I'd probably install the NC relay powered off the
generator input to be safe.
Dana
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com



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Kurt Albershardt
2008-11-21 03:10:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm hearing that it "should" be OK, but to CYA install a relay.
Yes, but...

The real answer is to find a genset and inverter which can peacefully coexist. I don't know what sort of regulator topology is used by the gensets we have heard about, but that seems to be the key. Many commercial/industrial gensets here in the US are built around the Marathon SE350 (or something very similar) - a tried and proven analog design - but one which was never designed to co-exist with parallel generation sources. Might someone like DSE have a solution that would address this?
generator and transfer switch 200 feet away from the inverter. Installing a relay on this one would mean 200 feet of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or, maybe a wireless connection
Why not some kind of PLC-based control with a well-constructed failsafe scheme?





.
Kurt Albershardt
2008-11-21 03:10:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm hearing that it "should" be OK, but to CYA install a relay.
Yes, but...

The real answer is to find a genset and inverter which can peacefully coexist. I don't know what sort of regulator topology is used by the gensets we have heard about, but that seems to be the key. Many commercial/industrial gensets here in the US are built around the Marathon SE350 (or something very similar) - a tried and proven analog design - but one which was never designed to co-exist with parallel generation sources. Might someone like DSE have a solution that would address this?
generator and transfer switch 200 feet away from the inverter. Installing a relay on this one would mean 200 feet of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or, maybe a wireless connection
Why not some kind of PLC-based control with a well-constructed failsafe scheme?





.
Darryl Thayer
2008-11-21 04:37:30 UTC
Permalink
hI ALL
I have not done what you are talking about, but in different setting the inverter charger would "punch holes" in the sine wave as the generator ran and the inverter/charger or even a big battery charger ran. By reducing the charging rate the size of the holes in the sine wave would diminish and the assocated problems would reduce. The problems are due to a non sign wave caused by a non-linear charger characteristics, distorting the gen output.

Also I would be concerned with any transfer switch that does not watch for 1741.

I wish Chris from Outback would comment, as I have heard of new improvements that allow better gen and grid tie operation.
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie inverters & generators
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 9:10 PM
I'm hearing that it "should" be OK, but
to CYA install a relay.
Yes, but...
The real answer is to find a genset and inverter which can
peacefully coexist. I don't know what sort of regulator
topology is used by the gensets we have heard about, but
that seems to be the key. Many commercial/industrial
gensets here in the US are built around the Marathon SE350
(or something very similar) - a tried and proven analog
design - but one which was never designed to co-exist with
parallel generation sources. Might someone like DSE have a
solution that would address this?
generator and transfer switch 200 feet away from the
inverter. Installing a relay on this one would mean 200 feet
of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or, maybe a
wireless connection
Why not some kind of PLC-based control with a
well-constructed failsafe scheme?
.
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Tump
2008-11-21 11:13:27 UTC
Permalink
How close is the transfer panel from the main panel? If the distance is not
to far then actuate the relay (nc) from the generator source NOT the
utility. Generator running the relay is opened, only need to switch one leg
of the SMA stuff as the reduced input voltage would keep it from
connecting.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly
Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:31 PM
To: RE Wrenches listserve
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie inverters & generators


Jay, Drake, Don, Jeff & Wrenches,

The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?

We have another, similar system completed, just waiting for 2009 to
commission. So, I'd like to know if it's really needed, and the best
procedure, before investing the time and cost to go back.

There must be many Wrenches who have encountered such generator backup
systems. Come on, how many of you, besides Don, have connected the inverter
to the gen-tran main panel (with no disconnection relay) without a problem?
Anyone else had a bad experience, like Jeff?


Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside
the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage
will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
_______________
On 11/19/08 8:52 PM, "Drake Chamberlin"
<drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Post by jay peltz
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.
_______________
Post by jay peltz
That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with
accuracy or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not
zero.
Don Loweburg
___________________

On 11/19/08 9:42 PM, "Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design"
Post by jay peltz
We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but
didn't shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried
the very expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us
install a relay to tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC
reference from the SI was gone. Same situation as grid-tie really in
terms of your question.
Jeff
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I2P
2008-11-21 20:19:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 11/20/2008 9:57:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
kelly at whidbeysunwind.com writes:

It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?






Kelly, I would do this and sleep at night.

Don
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp
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Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-14 14:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.

Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Glenn Burt
2008-11-14 23:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

IMC Instruments makes a few differential controllers that have the ability
to provide data output for logging & analysis.
I have installed one, but have not yet done any data logging; it looks
promising.

http://www.imcinstruments.com/Home/Eagle-2%20Group%206-17-08w.pdf

YMMV

Regards,

Glenn Burt
Technical Specialist
Renewable Power Systems, LLC
PO Box 967
Averill Park, NY 12018
V: 518-674-5808
C: 518-810-3174
F: 518-514-1175
E: gburt at RPSPower.com
www.RPSpower.com



-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly
Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:51 AM
To: RE Wrenches listserve
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWH data logging

Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.

Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com




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List sponsored by Home Power magazine

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Carl Adams
2008-11-15 03:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit
comes with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out
TCT Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only downside
is that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in the kit
to drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT line). I
guess if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a standard
option. Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to
adjustment for offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot
water temperature ( 2 - 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set
point accordingly. I like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of
energy delivered by the SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger
units are available for higher flow rates/pipe sizes.

Cheers
Carl


On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind <
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
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Karl Schwingel
2008-11-15 23:37:58 UTC
Permalink
there may be a unit on the market soon from APRS (aprsworld.com) that
is a data logger, and differentail controller. it'll run on grid power
or DC from a pv pump driving panel.

the need right now is for a good reasonably priced (probably pulse
style) flow meter.

no word on the timeline of the product.

vernier also makes some nice little data loggers, but I've no real
information to offer on them.

Karl
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
The only viable option we've found is by Resol (also rebranded by Caleffi)
which includes their top-line controller (~$280) in conjunction with their
data logger, DL-2 ($500). With markup and installation this system will cost
our customer over $1K.
Are there any other AFFORDABLE options out there, that include data logging
to a computer or web interface?
Thanks,
-Kelly
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Karl Schwingel
NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer
NorthWind Renewable Energy LLC

PO Box 723 Stevens Point, WI 54481
Karl at Northwindre.com
Cell: 715 209 0446
Fax : 715 952 4501


This e-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named
recipient(s) above, and may contain information that is privileged or
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this
message in error, or are not a named recipient(s), you are hereby notified
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from
your computer. Thank you.
Nicholas Ponzio
2008-11-18 14:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Kelly,

The new Delta-T Pro controllers from Heliodyne have built-in networking
capability (WiFi or Ethernet.) Retail is around $500.
http://www.heliodyne.com/products_systems/control_units/delta_t_pro.html
I have one system up and running with the WiFi model for about 4 months
now. No problems yet. There's no display on the controller itself and
the software user interface is pretty rudimentary but it gets the job done.

Best of luck.
-Nik
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
Thermal wrenches,
We have a customer who wants to log the energy gain of his SHW system.
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-18 22:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Nik,
Thanks for the info. I was just about to ask if anyone has used the
Heliodyne Delta T-Pro....

Where did you source it from? Gro has given me an expected price of ~$300
(but don't have 'em). The cost of the digital flow meter/temp gauge is on
top of that. Is the digital flow meter necessary, or can you input a flow
rate from an existing analog flow gauge?

Seems like a good option for data logging. Is the software MS Windows -
only?

Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
The new Delta-T Pro controllers from Heliodyne have built-in networking
capability (WiFi or Ethernet.) Retail is around $500.
http://www.heliodyne.com/products_systems/control_units/delta_t_pro.html
I have one system up and running with the WiFi model for about 4 months
now. No problems yet. There's no display on the controller itself and
the software user interface is pretty rudimentary but it gets the job done.
Best of luck.
-Nik
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-19 00:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Carl,
Thanks for the info. Is data logging/collection possible with the Metrima
meters? There is a lot of information ? in a language I don?t understand ?
in the ?communication? section of the link you provided.

-Kelly
Post by Glenn Burt
Kelly,
I have installed several of the Metrima BTU/KWH meters for SHW. The kit comes
with a flowmeter, temperature sensors and wells (hot and cold), and a
calculator, nicely integrated. These are utility grade meters and more
economical than the hardware you mentioned(dealer price $425). Check out TCT
Solar ( http://www.tctsolar.com/ the US distributor). The only downside is
that the units are BSP thread ( adapters to NPT are provided in the kit to
drop the temperature wells and the flow meter into a 3/4" NPT line). I guess
if we deployed more of these in the US we'd have NPT as a standard option.
Another use I've found for these units is they allow me to adjustment for
offsets in the tank temperature sensor vs the actual hot water temperature ( 2
- 10 degrees typical), and adjust the high limit set point accordingly. I
like the fact that customers can look at the kWh of energy delivered by the
SHW system and easily convert to $$savings. Larger units are available for
higher flow rates/pipe sizes.
Cheers
Carl
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Phil Schneider
2008-11-19 16:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and the
point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have
marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility
has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of this
switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the line
AND load sides may be energized in the open position".

Do other Wrenches post this plaque? Is there a way that both line AND load
terminals of this switch could be energized? (other than an inverter not
paying attention to its UL listing?)

Thanks again for your thoughts,
P.

Phil Schneider
Creative Energies
Jeff Yago
2008-11-19 22:47:46 UTC
Permalink
We have a Fronius inverter system located on the interior wall of the garage next to our offices. When I get in my car or truck parked outside, and I have the radio set to a strong AM station, I can "hear" the inverter over top of the radio station while parked about 20 feet away and on the oposite side of the wall. As I pull away the radio interference drops off very quickly at about 30 feet. The sound is more like harmonic tones, not your typical static. I don't have this problem around my ol Trace SW40, but this is not intended to be a scientific study.

I have not heard of other equipment bothering inverters and would expect most of the hospital equipment to be shielded.

Jeff Yago

_____________________________________________________________
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 01:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,
I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a simple
question that doesn't seem to have been answered:

Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to the load
side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an automatic transfer
switch, when the grid is down and the generator running?

In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the generator
unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and backing up the entire
main panel.

SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will blow up. I
can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that the
voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5 minutes,
repeat. Is there anything nasty that could happen?

Thanks,
-Kelly


Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com







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I2P
2008-11-20 03:28:24 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 11/19/2008 5:25:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kelly at whidbeysunwind.com writes:

I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the inverter, that the
voltage could rise, causing the inverter to disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat.
Is there anything nasty that could happen?






Kelly, That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with accuracy
or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not zero.

Don Loweburg
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
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Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 17:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Jay, Drake, Don, Jeff & Wrenches,

The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?

We have another, similar system completed, just waiting for 2009 to
commission. So, I'd like to know if it's really needed, and the best
procedure, before investing the time and cost to go back.

There must be many Wrenches who have encountered such generator backup
systems. Come on, how many of you, besides Don, have connected the inverter
to the gen-tran main panel (with no disconnection relay) without a problem?
Anyone else had a bad experience, like Jeff?


Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the generator
voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside the window of the
inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage will them return to normal,
inverter will reconnect and repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from the grid
will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
_______________
On 11/19/08 8:52 PM, "Drake Chamberlin"
<drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Post by jay peltz
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.
_______________
Post by jay peltz
That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with
accuracy or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not zero.
Don Loweburg
___________________

On 11/19/08 9:42 PM, "Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design"
Post by jay peltz
We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but didn't
shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried the very
expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us install a relay to
tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC reference from the SI was gone.
Same situation as grid-tie really in terms of your question.
Jeff
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 17:57:06 UTC
Permalink
All,
I suppose a normally-closed relay on the inverter output, with coil
energized from the generator (i.e. It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?

-Kelly
Post by Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?
Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun &amp; Wind
2008-11-20 22:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dana,
I?m hearing that it ?should? be OK, but to CYA install a relay.

We just secured a third such system ? this one with the generator and
transfer switch 200 feet away from the inverter. Installing a relay on this
one would mean 200 feet of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or,
maybe a wireless connection......? This one is a small array (1.9 kW) and a
large genny (~20kW), so I?m inclined to think of the PV (if it even syncs
with the generator) as offsetting the house load, and not capable of messing
with the genny. I hope that?s not just wishful thinking :)

Thanks for the explanation.
-Kelly
Post by Dana Brandt
Hey Kelly,
I think that's probably the best solution. I don't think it should be
necessary with Sunny Boys in gridtied system, but it's certainly the safest
bet. I'm not sure if all SB's come with the right firmware, or if it's a
special option, but they can be programmed to allow for a wide grid frequency
window. This is used in the AC coupled arrangement with the Sunny Island. When
the Sunny Island's batteries are full it starts to raise the grid frequency
slightly. The SB's read this as an instruction to reduce their output and pull
their arrays off MPP. At a defined frequency, the SB's shut down entirely.
So, the stories of SB's frying generators in off grid, AC coupled systems
makes me think that the tight frequency window required for grid-tied systems
had been replaced by the wider window used for communication with the Sunny
Island. It was one of the first prototypes of these systems so it might be a
little different now, but I installed a system that allowed the SI supported
grid to range from 50Hz all the way up to 54Hz before the SB's shut down. That
could allow quite a bit of backfeeding of the generator and might explain the
generators being fried in these SI/SB AC coupled systems. I would think that
with regular gridtied SB's they'd shut down before damaging the generator.
Bottom line, though, I'd probably install the NC relay powered off the
generator input to be safe.
Dana
Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com



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Darryl Thayer
2008-11-21 04:37:30 UTC
Permalink
hI ALL
I have not done what you are talking about, but in different setting the inverter charger would "punch holes" in the sine wave as the generator ran and the inverter/charger or even a big battery charger ran. By reducing the charging rate the size of the holes in the sine wave would diminish and the assocated problems would reduce. The problems are due to a non sign wave caused by a non-linear charger characteristics, distorting the gen output.

Also I would be concerned with any transfer switch that does not watch for 1741.

I wish Chris from Outback would comment, as I have heard of new improvements that allow better gen and grid tie operation.
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie inverters & generators
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 9:10 PM
I'm hearing that it "should" be OK, but
to CYA install a relay.
Yes, but...
The real answer is to find a genset and inverter which can
peacefully coexist. I don't know what sort of regulator
topology is used by the gensets we have heard about, but
that seems to be the key. Many commercial/industrial
gensets here in the US are built around the Marathon SE350
(or something very similar) - a tried and proven analog
design - but one which was never designed to co-exist with
parallel generation sources. Might someone like DSE have a
solution that would address this?
generator and transfer switch 200 feet away from the
inverter. Installing a relay on this one would mean 200 feet
of conduit through driveway and landscaping. Or, maybe a
wireless connection
Why not some kind of PLC-based control with a
well-constructed failsafe scheme?
.
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Tump
2008-11-21 11:13:27 UTC
Permalink
How close is the transfer panel from the main panel? If the distance is not
to far then actuate the relay (nc) from the generator source NOT the
utility. Generator running the relay is opened, only need to switch one leg
of the SMA stuff as the reduced input voltage would keep it from
connecting.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly
Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:31 PM
To: RE Wrenches listserve
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie inverters & generators


Jay, Drake, Don, Jeff & Wrenches,

The relay seems like a reasonable solution. However, if the main panel is
entirely backed up by the genny, to power the relay from the grid (only)
requires a line-side tap, yes? Is there a simple solution that I?m missing?

We have another, similar system completed, just waiting for 2009 to
commission. So, I'd like to know if it's really needed, and the best
procedure, before investing the time and cost to go back.

There must be many Wrenches who have encountered such generator backup
systems. Come on, how many of you, besides Don, have connected the inverter
to the gen-tran main panel (with no disconnection relay) without a problem?
Anyone else had a bad experience, like Jeff?


Thanks,
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
987 Wanamaker Rd,
Coupeville, WA 98239
PH & FAX 360-678-7131
sunwind at whidbeysunwind.com
Post by jay peltz
Hi Kelly
I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the
generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go outside
the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out, voltage
will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and repeat.
But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from
the grid will take care of the problem.
jay
peltz power
_______________
On 11/19/08 8:52 PM, "Drake Chamberlin"
<drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Post by jay peltz
It is recommended to use a relay to disconnect the inverter when the
panel is being fed by the generator.
_______________
Post by jay peltz
That is the way I see it. I have tested systems with gens and had no
issues. The Sunny Boy would not boot to a gen source. However, you can
understand what the official position must be. There exist gensets with
accuracy or it might just happen by chance. Low probability, but not
zero.
Don Loweburg
___________________

On 11/19/08 9:42 PM, "Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design"
Post by jay peltz
We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but
didn't shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried
the very expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us
install a relay to tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC
reference from the SI was gone. Same situation as grid-tie really in
terms of your question.
Jeff
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I2P
2008-11-21 20:19:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 11/20/2008 9:57:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
kelly at whidbeysunwind.com writes:

It opens when the genny is on) might be
easier than a NO relay on the grid-side. Anyone do it this way?






Kelly, I would do this and sleep at night.

Don
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