Discussion:
SMA inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
(too old to reply)
Blair May
2008-05-31 18:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2008-06-01 15:09:21 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Blair,

I know that SMA can adjust many parameters of there inverters.
( open the hz, V, time windows)

But you'll have to get it done there.

jay

peltz power
Post by Blair May
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of
infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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</x-flowed>
Carl Adams
2008-06-03 17:35:07 UTC
Permalink
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.

Blair please post what you find out from SMA.

Cheers
Carl
Post by Blair May
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Kirk Herander
2008-06-03 20:56:09 UTC
Permalink
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
practical without frying the inverters)so here's what I did:

1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter output to utility
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor was break-before-make
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do 1) because switchgear
and inverters are located in different buildings / conduit logistics. But
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change state when generator
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 / 277 three phase
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the grid whenever the genny
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.

Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]

On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.

Blair please post what you find out from SMA.

Cheers
Carl


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Kurt Albershardt
2008-06-03 23:00:26 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or three...
Post by Kirk Herander
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter output to utility
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor was break-before-make
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do 1) because switchgear
and inverters are located in different buildings / conduit logistics. But
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change state when generator
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 / 277 three phase
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the grid whenever the genny
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.
Blair please post what you find out from SMA.
Cheers
Carl
.


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</x-flowed>
Drake Chamberlin
2008-06-08 22:32:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>
Post by Kirk Herander
have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
practical without frying the inverters)
It seems to me that it should be possible to supplement the load of
backup generators with grid tie inverters, although I've not heard of
it being done before with direct grid tie inverters.

A control system would be needed that would monitor actual loads. So
long as the loads were considerably larger than inverter output, the
generator should be able to hold up the mini grid to keep the
inverters on line. When the load dropped, inverters could be shed. .

A control system can be built with existing electronics and current
transducers to measure the load and shed the inverter(s). I would
like to work with any EEs that wanted to put together a proto
type. I have further details and ideas.

The generators would need to put out very clean power. A possible
option to this would be to have inverters that could work with a
wider frequency window when the utility grid is down. The 4248 Sunny
Island has a sensor that changes frequency parameters when the
generator is running. This would require working with inverter
manufacturers who would likely need to get this option through
U.L. That is where it might get sticky. Does any one know how clean
the output of various generators is?

I don't think supporting a generator in this way would require any
new inventions. Trace did something similar many years ago.

Drake


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</x-flowed>
Kurt Albershardt
2008-06-03 23:00:26 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or three...
Post by Kirk Herander
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter output to utility
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor was break-before-make
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do 1) because switchgear
and inverters are located in different buildings / conduit logistics. But
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change state when generator
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 / 277 three phase
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the grid whenever the genny
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.
Blair please post what you find out from SMA.
Cheers
Carl
.


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</x-flowed>
Drake Chamberlin
2008-06-08 22:32:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>
Post by Kirk Herander
have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
practical without frying the inverters)
It seems to me that it should be possible to supplement the load of
backup generators with grid tie inverters, although I've not heard of
it being done before with direct grid tie inverters.

A control system would be needed that would monitor actual loads. So
long as the loads were considerably larger than inverter output, the
generator should be able to hold up the mini grid to keep the
inverters on line. When the load dropped, inverters could be shed. .

A control system can be built with existing electronics and current
transducers to measure the load and shed the inverter(s). I would
like to work with any EEs that wanted to put together a proto
type. I have further details and ideas.

The generators would need to put out very clean power. A possible
option to this would be to have inverters that could work with a
wider frequency window when the utility grid is down. The 4248 Sunny
Island has a sensor that changes frequency parameters when the
generator is running. This would require working with inverter
manufacturers who would likely need to get this option through
U.L. That is where it might get sticky. Does any one know how clean
the output of various generators is?

I don't think supporting a generator in this way would require any
new inventions. Trace did something similar many years ago.

Drake


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</x-flowed>

Kirk Herander
2008-06-03 20:56:09 UTC
Permalink
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators. Generators are 30kw and
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical load breakout). I was
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see generator power in the event
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to understand synch if its
practical without frying the inverters)so here's what I did:

1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter output to utility
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor was break-before-make
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do 1) because switchgear
and inverters are located in different buildings / conduit logistics. But
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change state when generator
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 / 277 three phase
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the grid whenever the genny
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.

Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]

On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.

Blair please post what you find out from SMA.

Cheers
Carl


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daryl_solar
2008-06-04 13:35:10 UTC
Permalink
I have tried something like this, not with SMA however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of the picture?
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or
three...
--On Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:56 PM -0400 Kirk Herander
Post by Kirk Herander
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators.
Generators are 30kw and
Post by Kirk Herander
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical
load breakout). I was
Post by Kirk Herander
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see
generator power in the event
Post by Kirk Herander
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to
understand synch if its
Post by Kirk Herander
practical without frying the inverters)so here's
1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter
output to utility
Post by Kirk Herander
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor
was break-before-make
Post by Kirk Herander
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do
1) because switchgear
Post by Kirk Herander
and inverters are located in different buildings /
conduit logistics. But
Post by Kirk Herander
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change
state when generator
Post by Kirk Herander
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 /
277 three phase
Post by Kirk Herander
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the
grid whenever the genny
Post by Kirk Herander
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators
[RE-wrenches]
Post by Kirk Herander
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid
tied array (15
Post by Kirk Herander
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also
equipping the site
Post by Kirk Herander
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the
grid going down
Post by Kirk Herander
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing
with the generator
Post by Kirk Herander
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits)
as Jay suggests.
Post by Kirk Herander
Blair please post what you find out from SMA.
Cheers
Carl
.
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Kurt Albershardt
2008-06-04 16:00:51 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Critical circuits would be ideal, but the design gets complicated quickly when you try to accommodate utility interconnection requirements. If I backfeed the critical circuits panel and put an ATS or MTS ahead of that, when the genset fires up the UL1741 inverter should ideally sync to (and reduce the load on) the genny.

Would love a safe, reliable way to do this without a genny, providing daytime power to run a few critical loads. If I could wake up something like a small Exeltech would the big inverters sync to it? Would the Exeltech overload and drop out before the load could be shared, or would I need coordinated switchgear to manage the changeover?
Post by daryl_solar
I have tried something like this, not with SMA however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of the picture?
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or
three...
.


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Kurt Albershardt
2008-06-04 16:00:51 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Critical circuits would be ideal, but the design gets complicated quickly when you try to accommodate utility interconnection requirements. If I backfeed the critical circuits panel and put an ATS or MTS ahead of that, when the genset fires up the UL1741 inverter should ideally sync to (and reduce the load on) the genny.

Would love a safe, reliable way to do this without a genny, providing daytime power to run a few critical loads. If I could wake up something like a small Exeltech would the big inverters sync to it? Would the Exeltech overload and drop out before the load could be shared, or would I need coordinated switchgear to manage the changeover?
Post by daryl_solar
I have tried something like this, not with SMA however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of the picture?
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or
three...
.


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daryl_solar
2008-06-05 12:15:46 UTC
Permalink
I have done several AC coupled systems using Outback and PVPowered, with very good luck, I use the critical circuit approach and the ATS is in the Outback. HOwever I am limited in power with the present Outback configuratuin, and Outback is close to a change that makes this limit larger. On small genny systems I have had good luck with DC coupled.

If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.

I look forward to more information and perhaps I have an oddball data I can add. contact off list if you want.
DT
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2008, 11:00 AM
Critical circuits would be ideal, but the design gets
complicated quickly when you try to accommodate utility
interconnection requirements. If I backfeed the critical
circuits panel and put an ATS or MTS ahead of that, when
the genset fires up the UL1741 inverter should ideally sync
to (and reduce the load on) the genny.
Would love a safe, reliable way to do this without a genny,
providing daytime power to run a few critical loads. If I
could wake up something like a small Exeltech would the big
inverters sync to it? Would the Exeltech overload and drop
out before the load could be shared, or would I need
coordinated switchgear to manage the changeover?
--On Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:35 AM -0700
Post by daryl_solar
I have tried something like this, not with SMA
however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what
is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits
situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of
the picture?
Post by daryl_solar
Darryl
--- On Tue, 6/3/08, Kurt Albershardt
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators
[RE-wrenches]
Post by daryl_solar
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about
grid tie
Post by daryl_solar
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all
that
Post by daryl_solar
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad
day or
Post by daryl_solar
three...
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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2008-06-05 13:17:41 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I am not sure we are talking about the same aspect of "generator
support", but I found a new (new to me) menu item when recently setting
up an off grid OB inverter. The menu option was "generator support" (on
or off).

Todd
Post by daryl_solar
If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.
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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2008-06-05 13:17:41 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I am not sure we are talking about the same aspect of "generator
support", but I found a new (new to me) menu item when recently setting
up an off grid OB inverter. The menu option was "generator support" (on
or off).

Todd
Post by daryl_solar
If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.
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Blair May
2008-06-05 17:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Yeah & I believe if you talk to the folks at trac sorry Outback you will
find," we are working on that" vapo ware!I might be wrong who knows they
may have written the code.

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
[mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]



I am not sure we are talking about the same aspect of "generator
support", but I found a new (new to me) menu item when recently setting
up an off grid OB inverter. The menu option was "generator support" (on
or off).

Todd
Post by daryl_solar
If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support
inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with
Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.
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Blair May
2008-05-31 18:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2008-06-01 15:09:21 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Blair,

I know that SMA can adjust many parameters of there inverters.
( open the hz, V, time windows)

But you'll have to get it done there.

jay

peltz power
Post by Blair May
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of
infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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wrenches/read
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wrenches/etiquette.php
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</x-flowed>
Carl Adams
2008-06-03 17:35:07 UTC
Permalink
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid tied array (15
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also equipping the site
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the grid going down
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing with the generator
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits) as Jay suggests.

Blair please post what you find out from SMA.

Cheers
Carl
Post by Blair May
Folks,
I have customers on an island here in Maine, where the utility uses
large diesel generators to provide power. A while ago (2 years) I
spoke to SMA regarding the AC input freq. adjustments in order to get
them to sync w/ a generator, there apparently was a way to do this does
anyone know if this is still a possibility?
Sure is a GREAT case study for using the Sunny Island & SB units,
although I'm not who would pay for that large amount of infrastructure.
<mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
<http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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daryl_solar
2008-06-04 13:35:10 UTC
Permalink
I have tried something like this, not with SMA however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of the picture?
Darryl
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about grid tie
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all that
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad day or
three...
--On Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:56 PM -0400 Kirk Herander
Post by Kirk Herander
I have two larger PV systems with backup generators.
Generators are 30kw and
Post by Kirk Herander
500kw respectively, holding up all loads (no critical
load breakout). I was
Post by Kirk Herander
told by SMA not to allow the inverters to see
generator power in the event
Post by Kirk Herander
of a grid power failure (but I am curious to
understand synch if its
Post by Kirk Herander
practical without frying the inverters)so here's
1) 10kw pv w/ 30 kw backup generator - tapped inverter
output to utility
Post by Kirk Herander
side of the generator ATS, knowing that ATS contactor
was break-before-make
Post by Kirk Herander
when switching house loads to generator power.
2) 40kw pv w/ 500 kw backup generator - could not do
1) because switchgear
Post by Kirk Herander
and inverters are located in different buildings /
conduit logistics. But
Post by Kirk Herander
this generator ATS has many SPDT relays which change
state when generator
Post by Kirk Herander
turns on - so we used one to drive the coil of a 480 /
277 three phase
Post by Kirk Herander
contactor. This disconnects all inverters from the
grid whenever the genny
Post by Kirk Herander
starts, which is weekly for exercise at minimum.
Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
fax 802.863-7908
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
Xantrex Certified Dealer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Adams [mailto:swingjunkie at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: SMA inverters & generators
[RE-wrenches]
Post by Kirk Herander
On a similar subject I will be installing a large grid
tied array (15
Post by Kirk Herander
kW) for an upcoming project. The owner is also
equipping the site
Post by Kirk Herander
with a 45 kW backup generator. In the event of the
grid going down
Post by Kirk Herander
will the SMA inverters be capable of synchronizing
with the generator
Post by Kirk Herander
(perhaps after adjusting the Hz, V, and time limits)
as Jay suggests.
Post by Kirk Herander
Blair please post what you find out from SMA.
Cheers
Carl
.
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daryl_solar
2008-06-05 12:15:46 UTC
Permalink
I have done several AC coupled systems using Outback and PVPowered, with very good luck, I use the critical circuit approach and the ATS is in the Outback. HOwever I am limited in power with the present Outback configuratuin, and Outback is close to a change that makes this limit larger. On small genny systems I have had good luck with DC coupled.

If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.

I look forward to more information and perhaps I have an oddball data I can add. contact off list if you want.
DT
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2008, 11:00 AM
Critical circuits would be ideal, but the design gets
complicated quickly when you try to accommodate utility
interconnection requirements. If I backfeed the critical
circuits panel and put an ATS or MTS ahead of that, when
the genset fires up the UL1741 inverter should ideally sync
to (and reduce the load on) the genny.
Would love a safe, reliable way to do this without a genny,
providing daytime power to run a few critical loads. If I
could wake up something like a small Exeltech would the big
inverters sync to it? Would the Exeltech overload and drop
out before the load could be shared, or would I need
coordinated switchgear to manage the changeover?
--On Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:35 AM -0700
Post by daryl_solar
I have tried something like this, not with SMA
however. to determine if my experiance is relevent, what
is the max load to be served? Is this a critical curcits
situatuion, or total load? Are batteries to be part of
the picture?
Post by daryl_solar
Darryl
--- On Tue, 6/3/08, Kurt Albershardt
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: RE: grid-tie inverters & generators
[RE-wrenches]
Post by daryl_solar
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:00 PM
I am interested in what others have learned about
grid tie
Post by daryl_solar
and engine-generators. Seems silly to idle all
that
Post by daryl_solar
expensive PV just because the utility has a bad
day or
Post by daryl_solar
three...
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Blair May
2008-06-05 17:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Yeah & I believe if you talk to the folks at trac sorry Outback you will
find," we are working on that" vapo ware!I might be wrong who knows they
may have written the code.

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
[mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: grid-tie inverters & generators [RE-wrenches]



I am not sure we are talking about the same aspect of "generator
support", but I found a new (new to me) menu item when recently setting
up an off grid OB inverter. The menu option was "generator support" (on
or off).

Todd
Post by daryl_solar
If the CC load is to large for the inverter to handle, a genny support
inverter (Xantrex XW) the CC load. I have done some genny support with
Outback, but have been told this is not an approved approach.
- - - -
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