Discussion:
TL Inverters
(too old to reply)
Mark Byington
2014-10-07 13:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL inverters
- the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC voltage
window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all you need is
a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input voltage range.
The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply don't have this
problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do
maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is
zero shade at the site.



I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that has
the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, and
just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.



Mark Byington

Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.







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frenergy
2014-10-07 14:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Mark,

The only thing I would add to all your good points is the addition of a 7700 watt TL which is of course perfect to stay under the 20% for load side connection of a 200A service.

Bill



----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Byington
To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters




Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply don't have this problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site.



I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.



Mark Byington

Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.









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Steve Jefferson
2014-10-07 14:32:57 UTC
Permalink
The first gen of TL's did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window.

However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW - 7700kW, with secure power supply) Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc)

Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW - 24kW) start voltage is 150, MPPT is 300-800V (max of 1000Vdc).

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Service Line Supervisor
3925 Atherton Ave
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)
Fax: +1 916 625 0871
Mobile: +1 916 622 4253
Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com<mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
www.SMA-America.com<http://www.sma-america.com/>

[cid:image001.png at


This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Byington
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters


Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply don't have this problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site.

I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.

Mark Byington
Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.



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Randy
2014-10-09 16:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Wrenches,

We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based on
several explanations given to our industry:

1. otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire
fighters lives in peril

2. This product can be constructed from readily available,
over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the intent of
CMP4 when compiling the NFPA 70.



We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting against
safety. And we know there are a few products that are code compliant,
micro-inverters (don't comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because there are no
products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this is not how we
choose products.



And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment
without complications as far as I can see.



Appreciate comments that might support the right decision.



Thanks,

Randy



Randy Sadewic

Cell: 505 570-0137

<mailto:Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com> Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com



Loading Image...



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jefferson
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters



The first gen of TL's did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window.



However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW - 7700kW, with secure power supply)
Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc)



Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW - 24kW) start voltage is 150, MPPT is
300-800V (max of 1000Vdc).



SMA America, LLC

Steve Jefferson

Service Line Supervisor

3925 Atherton Ave

Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714

U.S.A.

Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)

Fax: +1 916 625 0871

Mobile: +1 916 622 4253

Email: <mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com

<http://www.sma-america.com/> www.SMA-America.com



http://youtu.be/yQWzPuyqhzo
cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0



This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or
any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and
permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.





From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Byington
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters





Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL inverters
- the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC voltage
window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all you need is
a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input voltage range.
The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply don't have this
problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do
maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is
zero shade at the site.



I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that has
the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, and
just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.



Mark Byington

Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.







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Steve Jefferson
2014-10-09 17:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Morning Wrenches,

SMA is developing a product to meet 690.12 requirements.

It will be shown at SPI in Las Vegas.

Also, you will still be able to have SPS function with the provided solution.

Thanks

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Service Line Supervisor
3925 Atherton Ave
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)
Fax: +1 916 625 0871
Mobile: +1 916 622 4253
Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com<mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
www.SMA-America.com<http://www.sma-america.com/>

[cid:image001.png at http://youtu.be/yQWzPuyqhzo

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown

Hi Wrenches,
We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based on several explanations given to our industry:

1. otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire fighters lives in peril

2. This product can be constructed from readily available, over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the intent of CMP4 when compiling the NFPA 70.


We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting against safety. And we know there are a few products that are code compliant, micro-inverters (don't comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because there are no products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this is not how we choose products.

And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment without complications as far as I can see.

Appreciate comments that might support the right decision.

Thanks,
Randy

Randy Sadewic
Cell: 505 570-0137
Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com<mailto:Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com>

[http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg]

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Randy
2014-10-09 18:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Steve,

Will there be a retro kit?

Thanks

Randy



Randy Sadewic

Cell: 505 570-0137

<mailto:Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com> Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com



http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg



From: Steve Jefferson [mailto:Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 11:31 AM
To: randy at positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown



Morning Wrenches,



SMA is developing a product to meet 690.12 requirements.



It will be shown at SPI in Las Vegas.



Also, you will still be able to have SPS function with the provided
solution.



Thanks



SMA America, LLC

Steve Jefferson

Service Line Supervisor

3925 Atherton Ave

Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714

U.S.A.

Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)

Fax: +1 916 625 0871

Mobile: +1 916 622 4253

Email: <mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com

<http://www.sma-america.com/> www.SMA-America.com



http://youtu.be/yQWzPuyqhzo
cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0



This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or
any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and
permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.





From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown



Hi Wrenches,

We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based on
several explanations given to our industry:

1. otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire
fighters lives in peril

2. This product can be constructed from readily available,
over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the intent of
CMP4 when compiling the NFPA 70.



We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting against
safety. And we know there are a few products that are code compliant,
micro-inverters (don't comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because there are no
products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this is not how we
choose products.



And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment
without complications as far as I can see.



Appreciate comments that might support the right decision.



Thanks,

Randy



Randy Sadewic

Cell: 505 570-0137

Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com



http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg



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Dave Click
2014-10-09 19:29:40 UTC
Permalink
There is some pressure on NM specifically to postpone adoption of 690.12
until more products are available, so that may help you out. To my
knowledge, micro-inverters don't need to comply with 705.12(D)(6) since
there are no suitable products available [90.4]. Equipment does need to
be listed, and it does need to provide rapid shutdown functionality, but
it does not need to be "listed for rapid shutdown" to be code-compliant
since that isn't a thing.

String inverters generally speaking would have to have some method of
"control" within 10' of a rooftop array, like contactor combiners. I'm
interested in seeing what SMA's solution is, since contactor combiners
(as discussed earlier in this thread) aren't well suited for these
multi-MPPT inverters. I guess you can always add a second contactor but
I don't know what listed equipment is available right now (so... 90.4?).

DKC
Post by Randy
Hi Wrenches,
We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based
1.otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire
fighters lives in peril
2.This product can be constructed from readily available,
over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the
intent of CMP4when compiling the NFPA70.
We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting
against safety. And we know there are a few products that are code
compliant, micro-inverters (don?t comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because
there are no products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this
is not how we choose products.
And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment
without complications as far as I can see.
Appreciate comments that might support the right decision.
Thanks,
Randy
Randy Sadewic
Cell: 505 570-0137
Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com <mailto:Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com>
http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg
*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *Steve Jefferson
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 8:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters
The first gen of TL?s did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window.
However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW ? 7700kW, with secure power
supply) Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc)
Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW ? 24kW) start voltage is 150,
MPPT is 300-800V (max of 1000Vdc).
SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Service Line Supervisor
3925 Atherton Ave
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)
Fax: +1 916 625 0871
Mobile: +1 916 622 4253
Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com
<mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
www.SMA-America.com <http://www.sma-america.com/>
cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0
http://youtu.be/yQWzPuyqhzo
This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email
(or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately
and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and
any attachments thereto. Thank you.
*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *Mark Byington
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters
Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL
inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input
DC voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string
design, all you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of
the MPPT input voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the
Secure Power Supply don't have this problem. We no longer use these
larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do maximum string length (e.g.
strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site.
I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line
that has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier
this year, and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.
Mark Byington
Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
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Dave Click
2014-10-09 20:40:23 UTC
Permalink
And... after seeing boB's email I realize that my last sentence is
incorrect given the existence of the MNPVHV8-DLTL-3R for exactly this
purpose.

DKC
Post by Dave Click
There is some pressure on NM specifically to postpone adoption of
690.12 until more products are available, so that may help you out. To
my knowledge, micro-inverters don't need to comply with 705.12(D)(6)
since there are no suitable products available [90.4]. Equipment does
need to be listed, and it does need to provide rapid shutdown
functionality, but it does not need to be "listed for rapid shutdown"
to be code-compliant since that isn't a thing.
String inverters generally speaking would have to have some method of
"control" within 10' of a rooftop array, like contactor combiners. I'm
interested in seeing what SMA's solution is, since contactor combiners
(as discussed earlier in this thread) aren't well suited for these
multi-MPPT inverters. I guess you can always add a second contactor
but I don't know what listed equipment is available right now (so...
90.4?).
DKC
Post by Randy
Hi Wrenches,
We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based
1.otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire
fighters lives in peril
2.This product can be constructed from readily available,
over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the
intent of CMP4when compiling the NFPA70.
We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting
against safety. And we know there are a few products that are code
compliant, micro-inverters (don?t comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because
there are no products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet
this is not how we choose products.
And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment
without complications as far as I can see.
Appreciate comments that might support the right decision.
Thanks,
Randy
Randy Sadewic
Cell: 505 570-0137
Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com <mailto:Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com>
http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg
*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *Steve Jefferson
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 8:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters
The first gen of TL?s did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window.
However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW ? 7700kW, with secure power
supply) Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc)
Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW ? 24kW) start voltage is 150,
MPPT is 300-800V (max of 1000Vdc).
SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Service Line Supervisor
3925 Atherton Ave
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct)
Fax: +1 916 625 0871
Mobile: +1 916 622 4253
Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com
<mailto:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>
www.SMA-America.com <http://www.sma-america.com/>
cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0
http://youtu.be/yQWzPuyqhzo
This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this
email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited.
If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of
this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
*From:* RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Mark Byington
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters
Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL
inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input
DC voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string
design, all you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of
the MPPT input voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the
Secure Power Supply don't have this problem. We no longer use these
larger SMA TL inverters unless we can do maximum string length (e.g.
strings of 8 for SunPower 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site.
I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line
that has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier
this year, and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply.
Mark Byington
Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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