Discussion:
Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
(too old to reply)
Blair May
2007-11-29 00:43:20 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP





Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"


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Daryl DeJoy
2007-11-29 04:32:02 UTC
Permalink
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
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Bill Loesch
2007-11-29 12:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Daryl et al,

I hope the holidays will be good for you and to you.

This comment is _exactly_ what I envision one function of the RE-wrenches
list to be all about.

My compliments, Daryl, for being willing to call a spade a spade (In Your
Humble Opinion).

Keep up the good fight (and good work, NABCEP Certified PV installer).

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

P.S. More pre release product testing (or better engineering) is my wish for
my business New Year.
Listening marketing gurus?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daryl DeJoy" <penobscotsolar at midmaine.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Daryl DeJoy
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
--
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Post by Daryl DeJoy
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Bill Loesch
2007-11-29 12:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Daryl et al,

I hope the holidays will be good for you and to you.

This comment is _exactly_ what I envision one function of the RE-wrenches
list to be all about.

My compliments, Daryl, for being willing to call a spade a spade (In Your
Humble Opinion).

Keep up the good fight (and good work, NABCEP Certified PV installer).

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

P.S. More pre release product testing (or better engineering) is my wish for
my business New Year.
Listening marketing gurus?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daryl DeJoy" <penobscotsolar at midmaine.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Daryl DeJoy
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
--
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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 04:38:55 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Tump,

Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?

The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.

Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,

jay

peltz power
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-29 14:31:30 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.

For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!

Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
jay
peltz power
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</x-flowed>
Allan Sindelar
2007-11-29 14:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it has become our default platform for a single-inverter offgrid
package. A full BOS, not including batteries, will fit in a closet. Given
the current cost of construction, that's a big advantage to a homeowner. It
also works well for an "extreme makeover" system upgrade, given its
compactness.

And when I call Midnite with a question or suggestion, Robin personally
answers. That means a lot. And he listens: several of the design details in
the units came from feedback we gave him.

Allan at Positive Energy


----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.
For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!
Todd
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John Raynes
2007-11-29 15:16:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Count me in as another convert to the Midnite camp. I agree entirely with
the comments thus far, with the possible exception that I think it actually
only takes 1/3 to 1/4 the time to wire a Midnite panel vs. a Flexware
panel, once you've gone through the first couple. Less cost to customer,
more profit for us, what's not to like?

I'm disappointed with Flexware. At best, it's a move sideways, at worst a
move backwards. There are some improvements, but they're pretty
minor. Flexware takes more installer time to wire than the green boxes
did, while costing more off the shelf (even before the price
increases). The deeper AC and DC cabinets are a negative to me - if and
when I do another Flexware system, I won't ever wire another X-240 inside
the AC enclosure. It's just darn near impossible to reach your hands in to
access the neutral and ground busses with the X-240 in place.

We've kind of standardized on the Midnite "stretched" Outback versions -
the smaller units are a bit too tight for my tastes, and you've really got
to be careful with thinking through your on-site conduit routing and
entries in advance, since there aren't as many. But that's fine - the
stretched versions are readily available and don't cost much more.

Not only is Robin great to work with, but if you want additional breaker
mounting brackets, additional small busbars, etc. that the distributors may
not carry, he's happy to ship out small quantities direct. We're going to
start figuring in an additional breaker mounting plate (without the
additional bypass switch) on the opposite side in our Midnite costs, so
that we keep the DC breakers on the same side as the MX60. Makes for a
much easier to understand layout for the customer, and keeps the DC and AC
internal wiring further separated. If you've got a stock of the old
ODBC-style (Airpax) breakers, which Midnite doesn't use standard, he's got
mounting plates for them as well.

Funny thing is, I'm sure I sold more Outback systems this year because of
Midnite. A Midnite package will get Outback inverters in lots more places
(both physically and cost-wise) for the reasons already stated.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey, UT
Post by Allan Sindelar
Yes, it has become our default platform for a single-inverter offgrid
package. A full BOS, not including batteries, will fit in a closet. Given
the current cost of construction, that's a big advantage to a homeowner. It
also works well for an "extreme makeover" system upgrade, given its
compactness.
And when I call Midnite with a question or suggestion, Robin personally
answers. That means a lot. And he listens: several of the design details in
the units came from feedback we gave him.
Allan at Positive Energy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.
For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!
Todd
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:32:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)

way easier and lots more room.

jay


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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-29 15:46:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hey Jay,

Not sure what the "wide version" is? I installed a midnight e-panel. The
Magnum mounted on the (hinged) cover to the connection enclosure which
combines AC & DC in one box. The enclosure was around the same width as
the inverter.

Here is a shot before the battery box was built.

Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)
way easier and lots more room.
jay
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--
Todd Cory


KE6SXS

*toddcory at finestplanet.com <mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com>*


Mt. Shasta Energy Services


License C-10 #811428


P.O. Box 689


Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067

*(530) 926-1079*

* *

*NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security
Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice.
They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have
no recourse or protection, save calling for the impeachment of the
current President & Vice-President.*

* *

* *

*http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4
<http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4>***

* *

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http://www.theoildrum.com/

?I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we don't have to wait till oil and coal run out before we tackle that."

? Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931**

* *

?Every one of us can do something to protect and care for our planet. We should live in such a way that makes a future possible.?

? Thich Nhat Hanh



"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."

? Chief Seattle



"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy."

? Wendell Berry



"Transitioning gracefully from the Age of Excess to the Era of Modesty."

?Richard Heinberg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:50:24 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Check out the MNE250STS

Its 18" wide instead of the 14" of the outback one.

A bit more expensive, but way better wiring busbars and room.

Its the only ones I use now.

jay
On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Hey Jay,
Not sure what the "wide version" is? I installed a midnight e-
panel. The Magnum mounted on the (hinged) cover to the connection
enclosure which combines AC & DC in one box. The enclosure was
around the same width as the inverter.
Here is a shot before the battery box was built.
Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)
way easier and lots more room.
jay
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--
Todd Cory
KE6SXS
*toddcory at finestplanet.com <mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com>*
Mt. Shasta Energy Services
License C-10 #811428
P.O. Box 689
Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067
*(530) 926-1079*
* *
*NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National
Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant,
or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative
oversight. You have no recourse or protection, save calling for the
impeachment of the current President & Vice-President.*
* *
* *
*http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4
<http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?
mode=viewprofile&u=4>***
* *
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
http://www.theoildrum.com/
?I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we don't have to wait
till oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
? Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey
Firestone, March 1931**
* *
?Every one of us can do something to protect and care for our
planet. We should live in such a way that makes a future possible.?
? Thich Nhat Hanh
"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been
poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we
cannot eat money."
? Chief Seattle
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and
demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws
of justice and mercy."
? Wendell Berry
"Transitioning gracefully from the Age of Excess to the Era of
Modesty."
?Richard Heinberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:56:20 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.

How do you like the magnum?

My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.

jay

peltz power


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Howie Michaelson
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
I installed a Magnum in my house after my SW bit the dust in a massive
lightning strike this past summer. I was excited to try a new inverter
out so I could offer my clients more than the OB since I will not install
another Xantrex product if I have the remotest choice. I wanted to test
it out before subjecting any customers to it, and I'm glad I did, sort of.
I too am pretty unhappy with the charge parameter settings - similar to
the DR. I also noticed a marketed increase in radio frequency noise in
the house and on the portable phones. Very disappointing since I would
have assumed that there would be at least no more RF interference from the
Magnum than from a 10 year old SW.

When I called Magnum support about these issues, first I was told that I
had no need for more variability in the charge parameters than they
offered, so there was no chance of any changes there. When I mentioned
that Robin Gudgel told me that Magnum was working on an upgrade that would
do just that, the tech check with the engineers and then allowed that in
fact they were working on something, but it would be released for at least
a year, and that I would have to get a new controller to be able to use
it. Even though they have advertised their equipment to be field
upgradable, and there was no offer to replace my unit.

About the RF he hinted that some others may have mentioned that concern,
but it wasn't a concern of Magnum's, and they hadn't any reason to believe
there was a problem - that the problem was on my end. It is possible
since I switched to an E-panel, that the mixing of the AC and DC wiring
may be having some effect that way, but Robin didn't seem to think that
should have any effect. I'm no electrical engineer so I've basically
dropped this issue for the time being, although my wife complains that she
cannot stand to listen to the radio anymore...

So at this time, I am not recommending the Magnum to anyone, as much for
the poor customer support as unhappiness with a few significant aspects of
their product. I do intend to use the E-panel more and echo the positive
comments about Robin's service, though he probably shouldn't answer the
phone so much. And I look forward to his release of their charge
controller, a new improved Lightning Arrestor which he has sort of
promised...

Howie

ps Has anyone else had RF issues with either the Magnum or the E-panel?
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.
How do you like the magnum?
My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.
jay
peltz power
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Howie Michaelson
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
I installed a Magnum in my house after my SW bit the dust in a massive
lightning strike this past summer. I was excited to try a new inverter
out so I could offer my clients more than the OB since I will not install
another Xantrex product if I have the remotest choice. I wanted to test
it out before subjecting any customers to it, and I'm glad I did, sort of.
I too am pretty unhappy with the charge parameter settings - similar to
the DR. I also noticed a marketed increase in radio frequency noise in
the house and on the portable phones. Very disappointing since I would
have assumed that there would be at least no more RF interference from the
Magnum than from a 10 year old SW.

When I called Magnum support about these issues, first I was told that I
had no need for more variability in the charge parameters than they
offered, so there was no chance of any changes there. When I mentioned
that Robin Gudgel told me that Magnum was working on an upgrade that would
do just that, the tech check with the engineers and then allowed that in
fact they were working on something, but it would be released for at least
a year, and that I would have to get a new controller to be able to use
it. Even though they have advertised their equipment to be field
upgradable, and there was no offer to replace my unit.

About the RF he hinted that some others may have mentioned that concern,
but it wasn't a concern of Magnum's, and they hadn't any reason to believe
there was a problem - that the problem was on my end. It is possible
since I switched to an E-panel, that the mixing of the AC and DC wiring
may be having some effect that way, but Robin didn't seem to think that
should have any effect. I'm no electrical engineer so I've basically
dropped this issue for the time being, although my wife complains that she
cannot stand to listen to the radio anymore...

So at this time, I am not recommending the Magnum to anyone, as much for
the poor customer support as unhappiness with a few significant aspects of
their product. I do intend to use the E-panel more and echo the positive
comments about Robin's service, though he probably shouldn't answer the
phone so much. And I look forward to his release of their charge
controller, a new improved Lightning Arrestor which he has sort of
promised...

Howie

ps Has anyone else had RF issues with either the Magnum or the E-panel?
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.
How do you like the magnum?
My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.
jay
peltz power
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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:50:24 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Check out the MNE250STS

Its 18" wide instead of the 14" of the outback one.

A bit more expensive, but way better wiring busbars and room.

Its the only ones I use now.

jay
On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Hey Jay,
Not sure what the "wide version" is? I installed a midnight e-
panel. The Magnum mounted on the (hinged) cover to the connection
enclosure which combines AC & DC in one box. The enclosure was
around the same width as the inverter.
Here is a shot before the battery box was built.
Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)
way easier and lots more room.
jay
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Todd Cory
KE6SXS
*toddcory at finestplanet.com <mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com>*
Mt. Shasta Energy Services
License C-10 #811428
P.O. Box 689
Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067
*(530) 926-1079*
* *
*NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National
Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant,
or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative
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* *
* *
*http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4
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mode=viewprofile&u=4>***
* *
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
http://www.theoildrum.com/
?I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we don't have to wait
till oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
? Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey
Firestone, March 1931**
* *
?Every one of us can do something to protect and care for our
planet. We should live in such a way that makes a future possible.?
? Thich Nhat Hanh
"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been
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cannot eat money."
? Chief Seattle
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and
demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws
of justice and mercy."
? Wendell Berry
"Transitioning gracefully from the Age of Excess to the Era of
Modesty."
?Richard Heinberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:56:20 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.

How do you like the magnum?

My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.

jay

peltz power


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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-29 15:46:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hey Jay,

Not sure what the "wide version" is? I installed a midnight e-panel. The
Magnum mounted on the (hinged) cover to the connection enclosure which
combines AC & DC in one box. The enclosure was around the same width as
the inverter.

Here is a shot before the battery box was built.

Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)
way easier and lots more room.
jay
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--
Todd Cory


KE6SXS

*toddcory at finestplanet.com <mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com>*


Mt. Shasta Energy Services


License C-10 #811428


P.O. Box 689


Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067

*(530) 926-1079*

* *

*NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security
Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice.
They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have
no recourse or protection, save calling for the impeachment of the
current President & Vice-President.*

* *

* *

*http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4
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* *

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

http://www.theoildrum.com/

?I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we don't have to wait till oil and coal run out before we tackle that."

? Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931**

* *

?Every one of us can do something to protect and care for our planet. We should live in such a way that makes a future possible.?

? Thich Nhat Hanh



"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."

? Chief Seattle



"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy."

? Wendell Berry



"Transitioning gracefully from the Age of Excess to the Era of Modesty."

?Richard Heinberg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Allan Sindelar
2007-11-29 14:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it has become our default platform for a single-inverter offgrid
package. A full BOS, not including batteries, will fit in a closet. Given
the current cost of construction, that's a big advantage to a homeowner. It
also works well for an "extreme makeover" system upgrade, given its
compactness.

And when I call Midnite with a question or suggestion, Robin personally
answers. That means a lot. And he listens: several of the design details in
the units came from feedback we gave him.

Allan at Positive Energy


----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.
For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!
Todd
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John Raynes
2007-11-29 15:16:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Count me in as another convert to the Midnite camp. I agree entirely with
the comments thus far, with the possible exception that I think it actually
only takes 1/3 to 1/4 the time to wire a Midnite panel vs. a Flexware
panel, once you've gone through the first couple. Less cost to customer,
more profit for us, what's not to like?

I'm disappointed with Flexware. At best, it's a move sideways, at worst a
move backwards. There are some improvements, but they're pretty
minor. Flexware takes more installer time to wire than the green boxes
did, while costing more off the shelf (even before the price
increases). The deeper AC and DC cabinets are a negative to me - if and
when I do another Flexware system, I won't ever wire another X-240 inside
the AC enclosure. It's just darn near impossible to reach your hands in to
access the neutral and ground busses with the X-240 in place.

We've kind of standardized on the Midnite "stretched" Outback versions -
the smaller units are a bit too tight for my tastes, and you've really got
to be careful with thinking through your on-site conduit routing and
entries in advance, since there aren't as many. But that's fine - the
stretched versions are readily available and don't cost much more.

Not only is Robin great to work with, but if you want additional breaker
mounting brackets, additional small busbars, etc. that the distributors may
not carry, he's happy to ship out small quantities direct. We're going to
start figuring in an additional breaker mounting plate (without the
additional bypass switch) on the opposite side in our Midnite costs, so
that we keep the DC breakers on the same side as the MX60. Makes for a
much easier to understand layout for the customer, and keeps the DC and AC
internal wiring further separated. If you've got a stock of the old
ODBC-style (Airpax) breakers, which Midnite doesn't use standard, he's got
mounting plates for them as well.

Funny thing is, I'm sure I sold more Outback systems this year because of
Midnite. A Midnite package will get Outback inverters in lots more places
(both physically and cost-wise) for the reasons already stated.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey, UT
Post by Allan Sindelar
Yes, it has become our default platform for a single-inverter offgrid
package. A full BOS, not including batteries, will fit in a closet. Given
the current cost of construction, that's a big advantage to a homeowner. It
also works well for an "extreme makeover" system upgrade, given its
compactness.
And when I call Midnite with a question or suggestion, Robin personally
answers. That means a lot. And he listens: several of the design details in
the units came from feedback we gave him.
Allan at Positive Energy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.
For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!
Todd
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 15:32:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Todd,

Have you tried the wide version?
( same width as the magnum)

way easier and lots more room.

jay


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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-29 14:31:30 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Yes, I just did my first Midnight system and was VERY impressed with the
ease of wiring accommodated by the hinged inverter mount. In addition,
it cost less then an OB PS2 configuration, takes far less wall space and
took me about 1/2 the time to wire it. Also the bypass switch is
ingenious and works flawlessly.

For a single inverter, this is surely the way to go!

Todd
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
jay
peltz power
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</x-flowed>
Blair May
2007-11-29 16:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Hey jay what are your thoughts on the idle current draw? also I find it
very noisy & yes the battery charging could be addressed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]



Hi Todd,

Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.

How do you like the magnum?

My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.

jay

peltz power


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 17:12:21 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Tump,

I haven't used one yet.
My main issue has been with the battery charging paramters.
I understand that it was developed for the RV market and so the low
charging voltages make for less mx on the bats. But doesn't make
good sense for offgrid.

what is the idle?
And noisy is a problem.

Mostly I use Outback and am pretty happy.

jay

peltz power


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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-29 17:39:00 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any problem
with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the openings for
the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut off at the same
time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never been under the
impression that the slider was used to actuate the breakers-- you have to
get your fingers directly on the handles-- but rather to prevent both
breakers from being turned on at the same time.

I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull one
myself the next install.

Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it did
not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of these
systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240 into the AC
cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board. Here's our X240
mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine screws installed from
the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures the X240 for wiring and
transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on the backboard, you can loosen
the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until you can put the remaining two screws
through the X240 tabs, through the back of the AC cabinet and into the
threaded inserts in the back board.

While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the longest
mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off wheel and grind
two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These become your
positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into back plate to create
threads. Install the two positioners into the back board. Lift the
inverter onto the positioner studs. Install two mounting screws-- lift the
FX slightly while tightening screws to take pressure off of the
positioners. Remove positioners and install two remaining screws.

We never order pre-wired systems. They are too hard to transport and we
have found errors in vendor wiring. We do not use the black-for-phase-A
and red-for-Phase-B color code. We have never found an instance where
keeping track of the phases was of any benefit. Instead, black is for
inverter input and red for inverter output. The same color code is used
for the buss bars. This makes tracing wiring much easier.

We draw up all of our installations with Visio. All of the thinking is
done before hand. I can share Visio templates on request.

Never trust the Outback error codes. They often point at the wrong error.

William Miller


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</x-flowed>
Nick Lucchese
2007-11-29 18:31:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

William,


I have yet to install or build up the new Flexware 500 or 1000 since
up till now our vendors still stocked the old PS2 and PS4 equipment.
But from what I recall in the documentation is that the back plate
now comes with hanger studs to temporarily suspend the inverters.
Were these not beneficial to you or perhaps overlooked since your
custom cut off screw approach worked so well? Maybe they didn't
actually make it on the final product but still shown in the manual?
Just curious, since I have not had my hands on one yet other than a
couple FW250's.

Aside from that, anyone have a Flexnet manual they can email me yet?


Nick A Lucchese
Post by William Miller
We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any
problem with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the
openings for the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut
off at the same time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never
been under the impression that the slider was used to actuate the
breakers-- you have to get your fingers directly on the handles--
but rather to prevent both breakers from being turned on at the same
time.
I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull
one myself the next install.
Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it
did not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of
these systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240
into the AC cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board.
Here's our X240 mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine
screws installed from the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures
the X240 for wiring and transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on
the backboard, you can loosen the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until
you can put the remaining two screws through the X240 tabs, through
the back of the AC cabinet and into the threaded inserts in the back
board.
While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the
longest mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off
wheel and grind two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These
become your positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into
back plate to create threads. Install the two positioners into the
back board. Lift the inverter onto the positioner studs. Install
two mounting screws-- lift the FX slightly while tightening screws
to take pressure off of the positioners. Remove positioners and
install two remaining screws.
We never order pre-wired systems. They are too hard to transport
and we have found errors in vendor wiring. We do not use the
black-for-phase-A and red-for-Phase-B color code. We have never
found an instance where keeping track of the phases was of any
benefit. Instead, black is for inverter input and red for inverter
output. The same color code is used for the buss bars. This makes
tracing wiring much easier.
We draw up all of our installations with Visio. All of the thinking
is done before hand. I can share Visio templates on request.
Never trust the Outback error codes. They often point at the wrong error.
William Miller
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Nick A Lucchese
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Planet Home
General Contractor # 808851
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
tech info and foreign orders: (530) 273-6754
order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 273-1760
e-mail: <mailto:nickl at sierrasolar.com>
world wide web: <http://www.sierrasolar.com>


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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-29 19:36:26 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

I am not aware of hanger studs. I'll have to look into these.

WM


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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-29 19:36:26 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

I am not aware of hanger studs. I'll have to look into these.

WM


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</x-flowed>
Nick Lucchese
2007-11-29 18:31:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

William,


I have yet to install or build up the new Flexware 500 or 1000 since
up till now our vendors still stocked the old PS2 and PS4 equipment.
But from what I recall in the documentation is that the back plate
now comes with hanger studs to temporarily suspend the inverters.
Were these not beneficial to you or perhaps overlooked since your
custom cut off screw approach worked so well? Maybe they didn't
actually make it on the final product but still shown in the manual?
Just curious, since I have not had my hands on one yet other than a
couple FW250's.

Aside from that, anyone have a Flexnet manual they can email me yet?


Nick A Lucchese
Post by William Miller
We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any
problem with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the
openings for the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut
off at the same time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never
been under the impression that the slider was used to actuate the
breakers-- you have to get your fingers directly on the handles--
but rather to prevent both breakers from being turned on at the same
time.
I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull
one myself the next install.
Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it
did not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of
these systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240
into the AC cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board.
Here's our X240 mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine
screws installed from the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures
the X240 for wiring and transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on
the backboard, you can loosen the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until
you can put the remaining two screws through the X240 tabs, through
the back of the AC cabinet and into the threaded inserts in the back
board.
While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the
longest mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off
wheel and grind two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These
become your positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into
back plate to create threads. Install the two positioners into the
back board. Lift the inverter onto the positioner studs. Install
two mounting screws-- lift the FX slightly while tightening screws
to take pressure off of the positioners. Remove positioners and
install two remaining screws.
We never order pre-wired systems. They are too hard to transport
and we have found errors in vendor wiring. We do not use the
black-for-phase-A and red-for-Phase-B color code. We have never
found an instance where keeping track of the phases was of any
benefit. Instead, black is for inverter input and red for inverter
output. The same color code is used for the buss bars. This makes
tracing wiring much easier.
We draw up all of our installations with Visio. All of the thinking
is done before hand. I can share Visio templates on request.
Never trust the Outback error codes. They often point at the wrong error.
William Miller
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Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--
Nick A Lucchese
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Planet Home
General Contractor # 808851
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
tech info and foreign orders: (530) 273-6754
order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 273-1760
e-mail: <mailto:nickl at sierrasolar.com>
world wide web: <http://www.sierrasolar.com>


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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-29 17:39:00 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any problem
with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the openings for
the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut off at the same
time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never been under the
impression that the slider was used to actuate the breakers-- you have to
get your fingers directly on the handles-- but rather to prevent both
breakers from being turned on at the same time.

I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull one
myself the next install.

Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it did
not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of these
systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240 into the AC
cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board. Here's our X240
mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine screws installed from
the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures the X240 for wiring and
transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on the backboard, you can loosen
the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until you can put the remaining two screws
through the X240 tabs, through the back of the AC cabinet and into the
threaded inserts in the back board.

While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the longest
mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off wheel and grind
two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These become your
positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into back plate to create
threads. Install the two positioners into the back board. Lift the
inverter onto the positioner studs. Install two mounting screws-- lift the
FX slightly while tightening screws to take pressure off of the
positioners. Remove positioners and install two remaining screws.

We never order pre-wired systems. They are too hard to transport and we
have found errors in vendor wiring. We do not use the black-for-phase-A
and red-for-Phase-B color code. We have never found an instance where
keeping track of the phases was of any benefit. Instead, black is for
inverter input and red for inverter output. The same color code is used
for the buss bars. This makes tracing wiring much easier.

We draw up all of our installations with Visio. All of the thinking is
done before hand. I can share Visio templates on request.

Never trust the Outback error codes. They often point at the wrong error.

William Miller


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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 17:12:21 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Tump,

I haven't used one yet.
My main issue has been with the battery charging paramters.
I understand that it was developed for the RV market and so the low
charging voltages make for less mx on the bats. But doesn't make
good sense for offgrid.

what is the idle?
And noisy is a problem.

Mostly I use Outback and am pretty happy.

jay

peltz power


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</x-flowed>
Chris Worcester
2007-11-29 18:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Blair,
I should have written this back in April when we did a FW250 install last
spring. It was not sweet. In fact I have sworn them off until it goes back
to the drawing board. There was no way to do a code compliant install with
what was provided.
The toggle for the inverter bypass CB was just one issue I discussed with
tech support at length, before getting to the client's home. Tech support
agreed this didn't work. They had it out on the desk when I called! It
needed redesigning. Our client has a high profile system as he teaches
renewable energy at a local college. His system is a demonstration system.
I assumed the inherent design flaw issues I spent many hours discussing with
tech support over the course of a month in order to do a code compliant
install prior to this install would be addressed and rectified by now. I am
disappointed to hear they have not. I literally had the parts spread out
here for a month, attempting to make sense of it. (The manual seemed to have
gone to China and back with much lost in translation). NOT A GOOD USE OF
TIME & a complete let down coming from a company we have all grown to
respect. I finally came up with a Code compliant buss solution, buying ILSCO
(or NSI Polaris) Insultap 4,5,& 6 hole #4 to #14 AWG busses to make the
wiring up. I could have drilled & mounted in the Red, Black or White OB TBB
busses but this would void the ETL listing, as the box doesn't allow room
for insulated AC or DC busses. What a nightmare! And then there wasn't
breaker space on one side for the MX 60 CB's and a GFP/2(soon to be required
on all PV arrays by the NEC). Oh well we just put the other CB on the back
where you can see it holding a mirror.
The MidNite Solar E panel is a neatly engineered package that we now use
without hesitation after the FW250 experience.
If the FW500 & FW1000 are not any better than the FW250 what else are we
supposed to use?
I was quite comfortable with the PS2 & PS4 systems having installed many of
them.
We did 5 off grid systems last year ranging from 1 to 10 OB inverters in
size.
This year we've done many grid tie systems & 2 off grid with the E Panels.
Maybe the drawing board will see the FW line before we have our next
encounter.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
NABCEP Certified PV Installer TM
USA Distributor of Proven Wind Turbines
Toll Free: 877-682-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"

-----Original Message-----
From: Blair May [mailto:tump at hughes.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches-topica.com
Subject: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]


Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP





Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"


--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 19:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.

I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.


"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"


boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Blair May
2007-11-29 20:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there other folks from manus that are allowed to post?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



-----Original Message-----

From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>



Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03

To:RE-wrenches at topica.com

Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment

about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work

properly.



I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the

list on the inverter/charger side of things.





"

The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It

took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned

slider.

Thanks,

Robin

"





boB Gudgel K7IQ

MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy

Washington AC





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Blair May
2007-11-29 20:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there other folks from manus that are allowed to post?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



-----Original Message-----

From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>



Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03

To:RE-wrenches at topica.com

Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment

about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work

properly.



I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the

list on the inverter/charger side of things.





"

The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It

took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned

slider.

Thanks,

Robin

"





boB Gudgel K7IQ

MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy

Washington AC





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Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com





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David Palumbo, Independent Power &amp; Light
2007-11-29 20:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Howie & all,

We have installed several Magnums with no complaints on the RF issue. I find
that the Magnums do have a few warts that have already been mentioned. But
they do have one great feature with their MS4448AE inverter with 120/240VAC
output from one inverter. It is an excellent value as it works well with
120/240 split phase generators as well as in powering 240v water pumps
without the need for 120/240VAC transformers. They say that they will have a
24 volt model with 120/240VAC output "soon".

I had a Magnum MS2812 in an off-grid rental house that I decided to swap out
for an OutBack inverter. The 12v Magnum had a 44 Watt no load power draw (as
I measured with a Fluke 87 to confirm the TriMetric's readings) vs the
OutBack at 20 Watts. Magnum admitted to a DC no-load power number of 30W, I
could not get my MS 2812 to draw less than 3.2 amps at 13.9 VDC. Magnum 24v
and 48v units have no-load power draws in line with OutBack. Magnum said
that in the future they would offer a 12VDC line of sine wave inverters that
had a more acceptable low power efficiency.

We are using mostly OutBack's, almost entirely on MidNite Stretch E-Panels,
and a growing number of Magnum 120/240v MS4448AE inverter/chargers on
E-Panels.
-DP

-----Original Message-----
From: Howie Michaelson [mailto:howie at suncatchervt.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Magnum Inverters (was Flex ware inverter bypass slide)
[RE-wrenches]



I installed a Magnum in my house after my SW bit the dust in a massive
lightning strike this past summer. I was excited to try a new inverter
out so I could offer my clients more than the OB since I will not install
another Xantrex product if I have the remotest choice. I wanted to test
it out before subjecting any customers to it, and I'm glad I did, sort of.
I too am pretty unhappy with the charge parameter settings - similar to
the DR. I also noticed a marketed increase in radio frequency noise in
the house and on the portable phones. Very disappointing since I would
have assumed that there would be at least no more RF interference from the
Magnum than from a 10 year old SW.

When I called Magnum support about these issues, first I was told that I
had no need for more variability in the charge parameters than they
offered, so there was no chance of any changes there. When I mentioned
that Robin Gudgel told me that Magnum was working on an upgrade that would
do just that, the tech check with the engineers and then allowed that in
fact they were working on something, but it would be released for at least
a year, and that I would have to get a new controller to be able to use
it. Even though they have advertised their equipment to be field
upgradable, and there was no offer to replace my unit.

About the RF he hinted that some others may have mentioned that concern,
but it wasn't a concern of Magnum's, and they hadn't any reason to believe
there was a problem - that the problem was on my end. It is possible
since I switched to an E-panel, that the mixing of the AC and DC wiring
may be having some effect that way, but Robin didn't seem to think that
should have any effect. I'm no electrical engineer so I've basically
dropped this issue for the time being, although my wife complains that she
cannot stand to listen to the radio anymore...

So at this time, I am not recommending the Magnum to anyone, as much for
the poor customer support as unhappiness with a few significant aspects of
their product. I do intend to use the E-panel more and echo the positive
comments about Robin's service, though he probably shouldn't answer the
phone so much. And I look forward to his release of their charge
controller, a new improved Lightning Arrestor which he has sort of
promised...

Howie

ps Has anyone else had RF issues with either the Magnum or the E-panel?

--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.
How do you like the magnum?
My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.
jay
peltz power
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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 21:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...

Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.

No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.

boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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Hosted by Home Power magazine
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Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Howie Michaelson
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
So boB,

What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible upgrades?
And RF?

And any new info about the "Classic"?

Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
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Howie Michaelson
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
So boB,

What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible upgrades?
And RF?

And any new info about the "Classic"?

Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 22:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howie Michaelson
So boB,
What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible
upgrades?
I believe that for the MS Sinewave inverter/chargers, custom battery
voltage setpoints will be available for units manufactured within the
last 6 to 9 months or so withOUT an upgrade to the inverter itself.
However, you would need a newer remote or a Magnum Hub/Router (sort of a
super remote) shipping in just a few months. An MS inverter built
before that time would need a control board swap-out as well as a remote
to control those custom setpoints. Unless Dave Allegre is REALLY fast
at his new remote control, (Dave did the SW Plus code at Xan-Trace), the
Magnum 6 port Hub/Router will be first to be able to control these
parameters.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Sorry... Can't say I know much about the RFI/EMI reduction schedule at
the moment.

(somebody mentioned the lower RFI on the SW I think)...
These high frequency inverters like the MS and OB and X-verters tend to
make more VHF and high shortwave interference, and the lower frequency
inverters (like mod-square and old SWs) tend to make more AM and lower
frequency shortwave interference because of the lower switching
frequencies and BIG sharp edge switching. Actually, both topologies
have sharp switching edges but the lower frequency units swing one BIG
voltage step at a low rate where the high frequency units swing a small
voltage at a repetition high rate to emulate the sinewave.

The comments regarding this RFI have been forwarded to the others here.
Maybe more info for you soon on this... We'll see. Of course, you can
be FCC Class B compliant and still make RFI. Or, you could be FCC
compliant and not have a sticker. Being a ham myself, I want the EMI to
be gone at my operating frequencies.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And any new info about the "Classic" ?
Well, it looks like that in about a month MidNite will be sending out
some pre-trial units (an alpha I guess you call it) and hopefully the
beta should follow a couple months after that. Some of you will be
working with us on that. As Robin says "engineers lie" about production
dates, and I really don't like to do that, so I think I will leave it at
that other than to say the Classic is looking (and has worked) REALLY
good and I KNOW you're going to like it. But that's not what you want
to hear... You just want the REAL thing !! (so do I)

boB
Post by Howie Michaelson
Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Howie Michaelson
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
boB,

Chris F. has brought up some potentially valid points about the Midnite
E-Panel design:

1. AC input Power disconnect
2. Grounding with door open
3. Cable movement
4. NEC cable spacing requirements

Perhaps some others. Does Midnite have any response to these salvos that
you care to share with the list? This feels like a valid conversation
although not as a competition between manufacturers - these are issues
that we need to consider in our installations. We all need to understand
the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment available out there.

Thanks,
Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


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Bob Ellison
2007-11-30 17:19:04 UTC
Permalink
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Bob Ellison
2007-11-30 17:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Maybe I am missing something here but here are some thoughts from
memory as I am not looking at a panel at the moment.

Input disconnect, all I have put together have come with one, beside
the transfer switch.

Grounding, that would be the heavy copper wire that runs from the
inverter to the buss bar in the e panel, and from there to the ground.

Cable movement, if routed logically, and you close it while looking it
does not seem to be a problem. Don't twist the cable into a figure 8
and expect it to not get in the way.

Cable spacing is above my pay grade!

Got to leave, on the road again.
Bob
Post by Howie Michaelson
boB,
Chris F. has brought up some potentially valid points about the Midnite
1. AC input Power disconnect
2. Grounding with door open
3. Cable movement
4. NEC cable spacing requirements
Perhaps some others. Does Midnite have any response to these salvos that
you care to share with the list? This feels like a valid conversation
although not as a competition between manufacturers - these are issues
that we need to consider in our installations. We all need to understand
the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment available out there.
Thanks,
Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
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Allan Sindelar
2007-11-30 18:35:36 UTC
Permalink
My $.02 on these issues as raised by Christopher...

AC input power disconnect: Appears to be a red herring when used in an
offgrid application, which is all we have used the E-Panel for to date.
There is an AC input breaker. There is the AC input buss that will remain
live ahead of this breaker. But it's inside of a screw-cover enclosure,
which means it's only accessible to qualified persons. Either I turn off the
generator before opening the box, or I want the generator to be running for
testing.

Grounding with door open: Point well taken, and I'll change my approach.
They don't come with an inverter grounding conductor, and I can't count on
the hinge to establish a reliable ground with the door open, so I'll run a
bonding conductor with my DC cables from now on. Door screwed shut, it's not
an issue.

Cable movement: I had some real concern about this with the standard-width
E-Panels. I would shorten both cables by around 4-5" and put on new
terminals in order to make them open and close better. I never had trouble
with achieving at least 90 degrees of full-open; as it was required by Code,
I just made up the cables so that it worked. The stretch version has
resolved most of my concerns about inverter cable routing and movement.

NEC cable spacing requirements: Above my pay grade as well. I had assumed
that as a listed product, if installed according to the instructions (which
admittedly did not include shortening the cables...) I didn't have to worry
about cable spacing issues, as they had been addressed in the NRTL listing
process. And this forum has over the years pointed out flaws and
inconsistencies with just about every listed product we use.

Really, can't we all just get along? I appreciate John Raynes' comment that
he has sold more Outback systems because of Midnite. Us too, if a "system"
is an Outback inverter and an MX60.

In a dual- (or more) inverter stack, I'll likely use the PS or Flex, as it's
the best we have, warts and all. But we seldom need two inverters for an
offgrid home, even with deep wells, if we are involved in the design of the
water system. If a VFX3534 or 3648 isn't enough power, it might be cheaper
to change submersible pumps - don't laugh, it's happened. Big battery banks
need multiple inverters for battery charging mostly.

Seems like we have two manufacturers both making good, not perfect,
products, each of which may be preferable in particular applications.
There's room for both.

Allan at Positive Energy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Ellison" <reellison at gmail.com>


Maybe I am missing something here but here are some thoughts from
memory as I am not looking at a panel at the moment.

Input disconnect, all I have put together have come with one, beside
the transfer switch.

Grounding, that would be the heavy copper wire that runs from the
inverter to the buss bar in the e panel, and from there to the ground.

Cable movement, if routed logically, and you close it while looking it
does not seem to be a problem. Don't twist the cable into a figure 8
and expect it to not get in the way.

Cable spacing is above my pay grade!

Got to leave, on the road again.
Bob
Post by Howie Michaelson
boB,
Chris F. has brought up some potentially valid points about the Midnite
1. AC input Power disconnect
2. Grounding with door open
3. Cable movement
4. NEC cable spacing requirements
Perhaps some others. Does Midnite have any response to these salvos that
you care to share with the list? This feels like a valid conversation
although not as a competition between manufacturers - these are issues
that we need to consider in our installations. We all need to understand
the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment available out there.
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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 22:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Howie, can you and/or anybody else with MS RFI issues give Brian Faley a
call here at Magnum and let him know the specifics on your
application(s) issues on this ??

360-353-8833

Thanks,
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Howie Michaelson
So boB,
What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible
upgrades?
I believe that for the MS Sinewave inverter/chargers, custom battery
voltage setpoints will be available for units manufactured within the
last 6 to 9 months or so withOUT an upgrade to the inverter itself.
However, you would need a newer remote or a Magnum Hub/Router (sort of a
super remote) shipping in just a few months. An MS inverter built
before that time would need a control board swap-out as well as a remote
to control those custom setpoints. Unless Dave Allegre is REALLY fast
at his new remote control, (Dave did the SW Plus code at Xan-Trace), the
Magnum 6 port Hub/Router will be first to be able to control these
parameters.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Sorry... Can't say I know much about the RFI/EMI reduction schedule at
the moment.
(somebody mentioned the lower RFI on the SW I think)...
These high frequency inverters like the MS and OB and X-verters tend to
make more VHF and high shortwave interference, and the lower frequency
inverters (like mod-square and old SWs) tend to make more AM and lower
frequency shortwave interference because of the lower switching
frequencies and BIG sharp edge switching. Actually, both topologies
have sharp switching edges but the lower frequency units swing one BIG
voltage step at a low rate where the high frequency units swing a small
voltage at a repetition high rate to emulate the sinewave.
The comments regarding this RFI have been forwarded to the others here.
Maybe more info for you soon on this... We'll see. Of course, you can
be FCC Class B compliant and still make RFI. Or, you could be FCC
compliant and not have a sticker. Being a ham myself, I want the EMI to
be gone at my operating frequencies.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And any new info about the "Classic" ?
Well, it looks like that in about a month MidNite will be sending out
some pre-trial units (an alpha I guess you call it) and hopefully the
beta should follow a couple months after that. Some of you will be
working with us on that. As Robin says "engineers lie" about production
dates, and I really don't like to do that, so I think I will leave it at
that other than to say the Classic is looking (and has worked) REALLY
good and I KNOW you're going to like it. But that's not what you want
to hear... You just want the REAL thing !! (so do I)
boB
Post by Howie Michaelson
Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Tump - with all respect - I think this is not an issue with the design
of the FLEXware 250 AC bypass slider plate - but with your expectation
of what the AC bypass slider plate is suppose to do.

The purpose of the OutBack AC bypass slider plate is to prevent both of
the AC breakers from being turned to the "ON" position at the same time
- one breaker is the inverter output while the other is the bypass
breaker which connects the AC input to the AC output. When properly
installed, the OutBack AC bypass slider plate will also allow both of
the breakers to be put in the "OFF" position as well.

I think your issue is that the OutBack AC bypass slider plate on the
FLEXware 250 does not force one breaker to the ON position when the
other is switched to the OFF position - Correct?

This simply is just not possible to do AND allow both of the breakers to
also be set to the OFF positions which is a requirement of the NEC code,
UL standard and basic safe design.

It is true that the bypass slider plate used on the MIDNITE boxes does
force the other breaker to the ON position when the other is turned OFF
- but because of this, the design also prevents you from turning them
both to the OFF position - which is not compliant with the requirements
of the UL standards, the NEC code and basic safe design.

The MIDNITE bypass slider also does not allow the breaker to indicate
that is has tripped - which is another requirement of the UL standards,
NEC code and basic safe design.

So - please correct me if I am wrong here - but I think this is your
issue?

Also Note - You actually can make the one breaker go to the ON position
with the OutBack AC bypass slider plate simply by moving the breaker's
handle to the on position and allowing the bypass slider plate to do its
job - forcing the other breaker to trip to the off position before the
other breaker gets to the ON position. Just moving only the bypass
slider plate alone will not achieve this and is what I think your issue
is?
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-30 00:27:42 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Christopher,

I'll chime in here.

The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.

Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the time
its easy.

For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.

Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.

thanks,
jay

peltz power.
On Nov 29, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Tump - with all respect - I think this is not an issue with the design
of the FLEXware 250 AC bypass slider plate - but with your expectation
of what the AC bypass slider plate is suppose to do.
The purpose of the OutBack AC bypass slider plate is to prevent both of
the AC breakers from being turned to the "ON" position at the same time
- one breaker is the inverter output while the other is the bypass
breaker which connects the AC input to the AC output. When properly
installed, the OutBack AC bypass slider plate will also allow both of
the breakers to be put in the "OFF" position as well.
I think your issue is that the OutBack AC bypass slider plate on the
FLEXware 250 does not force one breaker to the ON position when the
other is switched to the OFF position - Correct?
This simply is just not possible to do AND allow both of the
breakers to
also be set to the OFF positions which is a requirement of the NEC code,
UL standard and basic safe design.
It is true that the bypass slider plate used on the MIDNITE boxes does
force the other breaker to the ON position when the other is turned OFF
- but because of this, the design also prevents you from turning them
both to the OFF position - which is not compliant with the
requirements
of the UL standards, the NEC code and basic safe design.
The MIDNITE bypass slider also does not allow the breaker to indicate
that is has tripped - which is another requirement of the UL
standards,
NEC code and basic safe design.
So - please correct me if I am wrong here - but I think this is your
issue?
Also Note - You actually can make the one breaker go to the ON
position
with the OutBack AC bypass slider plate simply by moving the breaker's
handle to the on position and allowing the bypass slider plate to do its
job - forcing the other breaker to trip to the off position before the
other breaker gets to the ON position. Just moving only the bypass
slider plate alone will not achieve this and is what I think your issue
is?
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Christopher
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
-
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-30 00:27:42 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Christopher,

I'll chime in here.

The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.

Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the time
its easy.

For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.

Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.

thanks,
jay

peltz power.
On Nov 29, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Tump - with all respect - I think this is not an issue with the design
of the FLEXware 250 AC bypass slider plate - but with your expectation
of what the AC bypass slider plate is suppose to do.
The purpose of the OutBack AC bypass slider plate is to prevent both of
the AC breakers from being turned to the "ON" position at the same time
- one breaker is the inverter output while the other is the bypass
breaker which connects the AC input to the AC output. When properly
installed, the OutBack AC bypass slider plate will also allow both of
the breakers to be put in the "OFF" position as well.
I think your issue is that the OutBack AC bypass slider plate on the
FLEXware 250 does not force one breaker to the ON position when the
other is switched to the OFF position - Correct?
This simply is just not possible to do AND allow both of the
breakers to
also be set to the OFF positions which is a requirement of the NEC code,
UL standard and basic safe design.
It is true that the bypass slider plate used on the MIDNITE boxes does
force the other breaker to the ON position when the other is turned OFF
- but because of this, the design also prevents you from turning them
both to the OFF position - which is not compliant with the
requirements
of the UL standards, the NEC code and basic safe design.
The MIDNITE bypass slider also does not allow the breaker to indicate
that is has tripped - which is another requirement of the UL
standards,
NEC code and basic safe design.
So - please correct me if I am wrong here - but I think this is your
issue?
Also Note - You actually can make the one breaker go to the ON
position
with the OutBack AC bypass slider plate simply by moving the breaker's
handle to the on position and allowing the bypass slider plate to do its
job - forcing the other breaker to trip to the off position before the
other breaker gets to the ON position. Just moving only the bypass
slider plate alone will not achieve this and is what I think your issue
is?
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Christopher
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
-
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</x-flowed>
Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:41:33 UTC
Permalink
So - for you - I guess its because you prefer the "rocker" style AC
bypass we had used on the PS2 - which I actually liked better too - but
its just not possible to do this when you have multiple single pole
breakers to control with the AC bypass mechanism - as in a quad
configuration.

We went to the AC bypass slider plate configuration on all of the
FLEXware systems to make them more consistent to wire up... previously
the wiring on the PS2 was very different than the PS4 wiring...

I also don't understand then why anyone would like the MIDNITE slider
plate - it doesn't even allow you to read any of the ON / OFF labeling
or the amperage markings on the breakers! Its hole for the handle is
extremely tight and covers up the entire front of the breaker's face.

I also strongly disagree with the use of two separate bypasses for AC L1
and AC L2 when a dual inverter system is installed - this allows you to
bypass one leg of AC while the other is still on the inverter. This
will fry 240VAC motors and possibly fry common neutral branch circuits -
resulting in a fire hazard. Its simply not a safe and compliant design.


Any other opinions out there?

Do you think it is OK to not be able to turn off the AC bypass breaker?


Do you think having two separate bypasses when two inverters are stacked
is acceptable?

Tell me what you think - I'll be here all night if needed...

This is gonna get exciting I think...

Christopher
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
I'll chime in here.
The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the t
time its easy.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.
Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Daryl -

What is the issue exactly? Is it that it doesn't force the bypass
breaker to ON when you turn off the AC input breaker?
Post by Daryl DeJoy
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Walt Ratterman
2007-11-30 00:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Just thought I would chime in here.... Walt Ratterman

I have trained and installed dozens of Outback three phase and quad
systems in Africa and other remote applications, and I tend to think
that the system where the slider turns everything off, and then requires
manual intervention to turn what you want back on, is perfect. I tend
not to like everything being real automatic, without thought, and there
are lots of cases where we want to turn everything off, (without
bypassing the inverter and turning the inverter to load connection back
on.)

I am getting ready to install my first batch of Flexware three phase
systems in Africa as soon as the equipment gets there, and am hoping
this design is still pretty much the same.

(Chris: can you let me know if there are any parts or pieces that
usually came in the PSDC and PSAC boxes that don't come with the
flexware? Like TBB's, positive bus bar for the DC breakers, etc.
etc....Just want to be prepared.... when I get into the middle of
nowhere...

Thanks,

Walt

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
[mailto:cfreitas at outbackpower.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]


So - for you - I guess its because you prefer the "rocker" style AC
bypass we had used on the PS2 - which I actually liked better too - but
its just not possible to do this when you have multiple single pole
breakers to control with the AC bypass mechanism - as in a quad
configuration.

We went to the AC bypass slider plate configuration on all of the
FLEXware systems to make them more consistent to wire up... previously
the wiring on the PS2 was very different than the PS4 wiring...

I also don't understand then why anyone would like the MIDNITE slider
plate - it doesn't even allow you to read any of the ON / OFF labeling
or the amperage markings on the breakers! Its hole for the handle is
extremely tight and covers up the entire front of the breaker's face.

I also strongly disagree with the use of two separate bypasses for AC L1

and AC L2 when a dual inverter system is installed - this allows you to
bypass one leg of AC while the other is still on the inverter. This
will fry 240VAC motors and possibly fry common neutral branch circuits -

resulting in a fire hazard. Its simply not a safe and compliant design.



Any other opinions out there?

Do you think it is OK to not be able to turn off the AC bypass breaker?



Do you think having two separate bypasses when two inverters are stacked

is acceptable?

Tell me what you think - I'll be here all night if needed...

This is gonna get exciting I think...

Christopher
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
I'll chime in here.
The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the t
time its easy.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.
Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
because:

The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.

It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.

The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.

I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 00:56:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 00:56:54 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
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</x-flowed>
Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for the very good point Walt. I agree completely.

Being able to turn on the AC input to each inverter one at a time with
the bypass off is a real valuable capability when you are
troubleshooting a system or wiring problem. Its something we though
about in the design of the FLEXware product as well.

The parts included in the new FLEXware panels are very similar to the
older PS products - the only major change is that the brackets for the
charge controllers are not included anymore - they need to be ordered
separately. The new FLEXware panels are lighter and more corrosion
resistant (because they are aluminum) and are better arranged inside.

I think you will be very happy with them and able to appreciate the
improvements.

Christopher
Post by Walt Ratterman
Just thought I would chime in here.... Walt Ratterman
I have trained and installed dozens of Outback three phase and quad
systems in Africa and other remote applications, and I tend to think
that the system where the slider turns everything off, and then requires
manual intervention to turn what you want back on, is perfect. I tend
not to like everything being real automatic, without thought, and there
are lots of cases where we want to turn everything off, (without
bypassing the inverter and turning the inverter to load connection back
on.)
I am getting ready to install my first batch of Flexware three phase
systems in Africa as soon as the equipment gets there, and am hoping
this design is still pretty much the same.
(Chris: can you let me know if there are any parts or pieces that
usually came in the PSDC and PSAC boxes that don't come with the
flexware? Like TBB's, positive bus bar for the DC breakers, etc.
etc....Just want to be prepared.... when I get into the middle of
nowhere...
Thanks,
Walt
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:02:25 UTC
Permalink
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?

And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...

Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-30 01:10:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Ah no Christopher,

He is talking about the AC input breaker next to the inverter bypass
switch.

I was talking about the smoothness of the bypass switch, nothing more.

jay

peltz power
On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 01:16:25 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-30 02:48:44 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

Todd raises an important question here: Where in the circuit should the
generator input breaker be located? I like to be able to de-energize all
of the busses in a given enclosure without having to walk any
distance. If, however, the generator disconnect is prior to the generator
buses, opening the generator breaker disables the bypass system.

Another feature I desire is to be able to de-energize generator feed to the
inverter(s). If you are bypassing the inverter, it has most likely
failed. If it failed catastrophically (or "let the smoke out", as we way),
you need to remove both DC and AC feeds to it so it does not catch
fire. To do this and still allow bypass operation, you need a breaker
after the generator buss, right?

Adding to this input conundrum are the breakers for the X-240 if one is
generator balancing. So, to do an installation with a 240 VAC generator
and one inverter correctly, one needs four sets of breakers: 1: 2 pole gen
input breaker, 2: 2 poleX240 breaker, 3: at least one pole FX input breaker
and, 4: the bypass breaker. This is a lot of breakers required to just get
Generator power into one inverter!! This is why I always advocate for the
four position Outback system even for one inverter. It has so much more
breaker space!

One relief I have for this situation is to use the X-240 breaker as the
generator input breaker. Considering this case were we are converting the
generator from 120 to 240 VAC, we are feeding the generator directly into
the X240 anyway. Furthermore, if the amount of generator current we can
feed through the X-240 is limited to 25 AAC, this is the breaker to
use. See link: http://mpandc.com/case_studies/case_studies.html

Lastly, Christopher Freitas, a question for you: In the Flexware 500,
where are we supposed to mount the cooling fan???

William Miller
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-30 01:10:31 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Ah no Christopher,

He is talking about the AC input breaker next to the inverter bypass
switch.

I was talking about the smoothness of the bypass switch, nothing more.

jay

peltz power
On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 01:16:25 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
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</x-flowed>
William Miller
2007-11-30 02:48:44 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Friends:

Todd raises an important question here: Where in the circuit should the
generator input breaker be located? I like to be able to de-energize all
of the busses in a given enclosure without having to walk any
distance. If, however, the generator disconnect is prior to the generator
buses, opening the generator breaker disables the bypass system.

Another feature I desire is to be able to de-energize generator feed to the
inverter(s). If you are bypassing the inverter, it has most likely
failed. If it failed catastrophically (or "let the smoke out", as we way),
you need to remove both DC and AC feeds to it so it does not catch
fire. To do this and still allow bypass operation, you need a breaker
after the generator buss, right?

Adding to this input conundrum are the breakers for the X-240 if one is
generator balancing. So, to do an installation with a 240 VAC generator
and one inverter correctly, one needs four sets of breakers: 1: 2 pole gen
input breaker, 2: 2 poleX240 breaker, 3: at least one pole FX input breaker
and, 4: the bypass breaker. This is a lot of breakers required to just get
Generator power into one inverter!! This is why I always advocate for the
four position Outback system even for one inverter. It has so much more
breaker space!

One relief I have for this situation is to use the X-240 breaker as the
generator input breaker. Considering this case were we are converting the
generator from 120 to 240 VAC, we are feeding the generator directly into
the X240 anyway. Furthermore, if the amount of generator current we can
feed through the X-240 is limited to 25 AAC, this is the breaker to
use. See link: http://mpandc.com/case_studies/case_studies.html

Lastly, Christopher Freitas, a question for you: In the Flexware 500,
where are we supposed to mount the cooling fan???

William Miller
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:15:10 UTC
Permalink
OK - lets take the gloves off...

Sure the Midnite box cost less - it only works with one inverter - not
two! It also holds much fewer breakers and other components - such as
multiple shunts.

The door mounted inverter is the worst idea in my opinion - you can't
even open the door up much past 45 degrees with the cable provided - and
they put a lot of stress on the terminals of the breaker - which can
result in a loose connection that you don't even notice when the door is
open - which then causes a fire...

There are requirements for the routing of wires out to a door mounted
component which are not met by the Midnite "E" panel. Things like
strain relief loops and tie downs straps and dedicated space for the
wires to lay by the hinge - none of this is done in the E-panel.

Proper construction also usually involves a protective loom over the
wires to keep them from being damaged by sharp edges of other parts
inside (like the shunt) or being pinched and having the insulation on
the wires be damaged.

Another issue with the E-panel is that there is no ground wire provided
for the inverter chassis - this means that when the door is open the
chassis of the inverter is not grounded (the tabs they think are a hinge
do not provide any means of grounding) so if there was a ground fault in
the inverter itself the whole door could become electrified when you
open it - that's a really nice surprise...

The requirements in UL and NEC standards are there for a reason - to
protect you guys!

I think the inverter on the door idea is dangerous and just a bad idea
all round.

Any other opinions or comments?

Christopher

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Jay - thanks for the clarification - but here is my issue for you -

The AC input breaker only disconnects the power from the AC input of the
inverter - the AC bypass still has AC power connected to it even when
the AC input breaker is off.

When the Midnite AC bypass is set to the bypass mode - the AC loads are
then powered through the AC bypass breaker and there is no way to turn
off the power to the AC load center.

This doesn't seem acceptable to my understanding of the NEC.

Christopher

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:37:59 UTC
Permalink
You are referring to the AC input breaker which breaks the connection of
the AC source to the inverter's AC input - it does not disconnect the AC
source from the bypass breaker though.

So the customer goes to turn off the AC output and the bypass then
connects the AC source directly to the load panel. There is no way to
truly turn off the AC supply to the house unless an additional circuit
breaker is installed into the Midnite panel which is not explained in
their wiring diagrams or included with the product.

Does that make sense?

Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.
Todd
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 02:49:51 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

No, but perhaps I do not understand you.

If there is no other AC source besides the generator to connect to
(which is the case with an off grid system) when the generator breaker
is off, then the bypass switch connects to nothing, so the house is
de-energized. It is the same set up in the PS2AC. If the bypass switch
is thrown and the generator input breaker is off, there will be no power
delivered to the house.

As I understand it, the bypass switch is there to bypass the inverter
and power the house directly in case of an inverter failure, not to
disconnect the loads.

This is moot anyway as the traditional (and legal) way to shut the power
to the house off is via the main service disconnect located in the
meter/main. It is CA law that this be outside the building or directly
inside the doorway. If the fire department comes and needs to shut off
the power that is where they go. No one is going to go search out the
inverter's AC panel to shut the house's power off.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
You are referring to the AC input breaker which breaks the connection of
the AC source to the inverter's AC input - it does not disconnect the AC
source from the bypass breaker though.
So the customer goes to turn off the AC output and the bypass then
connects the AC source directly to the load panel. There is no way to
truly turn off the AC supply to the house unless an additional circuit
breaker is installed into the Midnite panel which is not explained in
their wiring diagrams or included with the product.
Does that make sense?
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.
Todd
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-11-30 02:49:51 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

No, but perhaps I do not understand you.

If there is no other AC source besides the generator to connect to
(which is the case with an off grid system) when the generator breaker
is off, then the bypass switch connects to nothing, so the house is
de-energized. It is the same set up in the PS2AC. If the bypass switch
is thrown and the generator input breaker is off, there will be no power
delivered to the house.

As I understand it, the bypass switch is there to bypass the inverter
and power the house directly in case of an inverter failure, not to
disconnect the loads.

This is moot anyway as the traditional (and legal) way to shut the power
to the house off is via the main service disconnect located in the
meter/main. It is CA law that this be outside the building or directly
inside the doorway. If the fire department comes and needs to shut off
the power that is where they go. No one is going to go search out the
inverter's AC panel to shut the house's power off.

Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
You are referring to the AC input breaker which breaks the connection of
the AC source to the inverter's AC input - it does not disconnect the AC
source from the bypass breaker though.
So the customer goes to turn off the AC output and the bypass then
connects the AC source directly to the load panel. There is no way to
truly turn off the AC supply to the house unless an additional circuit
breaker is installed into the Midnite panel which is not explained in
their wiring diagrams or included with the product.
Does that make sense?
Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.
Todd
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</x-flowed>
Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 02:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Miller
We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any
problem with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the
openings for the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut off
at the same time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never been
under the impression that the slider was used to actuate the breakers--
you have to get your fingers directly on the handles-- but rather to
prevent both breakers from being turned on at the same time.
Yes - that is the point I have been trying to make - William said it
better...
Post by William Miller
I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull one
myself the next install.
This is being addressed we originally did not think we could get the 2"
k.o. into the new ACA housing with the new surge/lightning protector
installed into it - turns out we did. So soon there will be larger
knockouts for this connection.
Post by William Miller
Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it did
not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of these
systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240 into the AC
cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board. Here's our
X240 mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine screws installed
from the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures the X240 for wiring
and transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on the backboard, you can
loosen the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until you can put the remaining two
screws through the X240 tabs, through the back of the AC cabinet and
into the threaded inserts in the back board.
Just to be clear - there are threaded holes in the FLEXware mounting
plate for the installation of the X-240 transformer. I guess what
William is describing is wiring up the AC box without the backplate and
then later installing it onto the backplate at the site?
Post by William Miller
While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the longest
mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off wheel and
grind two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These become your
positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into back plate to
create threads. Install the two positioners into the back board. Lift
the inverter onto the positioner studs. Install two mounting screws--
lift the FX slightly while tightening screws to take pressure off of the
positioners. Remove positioners and install two remaining screws.
We actually do provide two longer screws that can be installed into the
threaded holes from the back of the mounting plate PRIOR to the mounting
plate being installed onto the wall. These two "studs" are between the
two mounting holes on each end of the inverter. They support the
inverter while installing it it onto the wall and do not need to be
removed once the inverter has been screwed down. It makes the inverters
able to be installed / removed by a single person.

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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William Miller
2007-11-30 21:21:27 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Christopher:

Yes, we like to install the X240 in the ACA in the shop and transport it to
the job. The stud idea from the back of the back plane is a great idea and
one we will definitely use.

Thanks,

William Miller
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by William Miller
Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it did
not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of these
systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240 into the AC
cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board. Here's our
X240 mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine screws installed
from the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures the X240 for wiring
and transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on the backboard, you can
loosen the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until you can put the remaining two
screws through the X240 tabs, through the back of the AC cabinet and
into the threaded inserts in the back board.
Just to be clear - there are threaded holes in the FLEXware mounting
plate for the installation of the X-240 transformer. I guess what
William is describing is wiring up the AC box without the backplate and
then later installing it onto the backplate at the site?
Christopher Freitas
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</x-flowed>
Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 03:05:23 UTC
Permalink
I think we are agreeing on most of this - other than one critical point:

On both the OutBack and Midnite AC bypass systems - the AC input or Gen
input breaker does not disconnect power from the bypass breaker - they
are not connected in series - each has there own connection to the AC
input bus inside the enclosure.

So turning off the AC input breaker does disconnect power to the
inverter. We agree here.

Switching the AC output breaker to the "OFF" position also disconnects
the inverter from the AC loads. We agree here too.

On the Midnite AC bypass system - turning off the AC output breaker for
the inverter forces the AC bypass breaker to the ON position. This is
the flaw and is what is not acceptable in my opinion.

If the generator was on when a problem occurred with an AC load -
turning the AC input breaker off results in the inverter still powering
the loads. Switching the AC output breaker OFF then turns the bypass to
the ON position - connecting the generator directly to the loads.

The only solution I see with this system is installing another breaker
into the system for shutting off the generator to the entire system.

With the OutBack AC bypass plate system - this is not required - you
simply switch all of the breakers to the off position and nothing is
energized.

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 03:20:36 UTC
Permalink
William - I reviewed your diagram and although it works - it is not the
normal way that we expected the X-240 to be connected.

For a single 120VAC inverter with a 120/240 VAC generator your
configuration is acceptable - but normally the breaker would be
installed where it is switching both of the two hot wires for the
transformer and another two pole breaker would be installed just as a
generator disconnect / overload protection. Your configuration does
eliminate this second breaker by using the one supplied with the X-240
for both functions.

Your configuration limits both L1 and L2 to the 25 amp maximum of the
X-240 breaker - a regular configuration would allow higher currents on
leg 1 of the generator but only 25 amps on leg 2. This may or may not
be a good idea. Most generators will tolerate up to a 50% imbalance
without any problem - its just bad when you are using only one AC output
leg and leaving the other disconnected and trying to get more than 50%
of the generator's ratings from it.

The X-240 when used in a balancing configuration is effectively self
limiting - if too much imbalance occurs then it inherently limits the
current in most conditions so as to not let the breaker trip. Its
tricky to work out and harder to explain - but its why we rarely hear of
any problems with them and if we do its almost always a wiring error or
so easy to fix issue such as balancing the loads better.

We retested the X-240 and with our current US manufacturer together with
the larger aluminum enclosures we found out that the cooling fan was not
required even at the 25 amp current level and higher ambient
temperatures. If you need a higher current rating we advise going to
the PSX-240 which has its own enclosure and is rated at 6000 watts
versus 4000 watts and has a 30 amp breaker and built-in cooling fan. Its
on the OutBack pricelist.

Christopher
Post by William Miller
Todd raises an important question here: Where in the circuit should the
generator input breaker be located? I like to be able to de-energize
all
of the busses in a given enclosure without having to walk any
distance. If, however, the generator disconnect is prior to the
generator
buses, opening the generator breaker disables the bypass system.
Another feature I desire is to be able to de-energize generator feed to
the
inverter(s). If you are bypassing the inverter, it has most likely
failed. If it failed catastrophically (or "let the smoke out", as we
way),
you need to remove both DC and AC feeds to it so it does not catch
fire. To do this and still allow bypass operation, you need a breaker
after the generator buss, right?
Adding to this input conundrum are the breakers for the X-240 if one is
generator balancing. So, to do an installation with a 240 VAC generator
and one inverter correctly, one needs four sets of breakers: 1: 2 pole
gen
input breaker, 2: 2 poleX240 breaker, 3: at least one pole FX input
breaker
and, 4: the bypass breaker. This is a lot of breakers required to just
get
Generator power into one inverter!! This is why I always advocate for
the
four position Outback system even for one inverter. It has so much more
breaker space!
One relief I have for this situation is to use the X-240 breaker as the
generator input breaker. Considering this case were we are converting
the
generator from 120 to 240 VAC, we are feeding the generator directly
into
the X240 anyway. Furthermore, if the amount of generator current we can
feed through the X-240 is limited to 25 AAC, this is the breaker to
use. See link: http://mpandc.com/case_studies/case_studies.html
Lastly, Christopher Freitas, a question for you: In the Flexware 500,
where are we supposed to mount the cooling fan???
William Miller
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 03:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Miller
I am not aware of hanger studs. I'll have to look into these.
These two screws are included in the hardware kit but need to be
installed into the pre-threaded holes from the back of the mounting
plate before mounting it on the wall.

There are two recesses on each end of the inverter which the hanger
screws fit into - so they do not need to be removed or messed with.

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Kent Osterberg
2007-11-30 16:14:28 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Christopher,

Any chance that there is a slider in the works for an eight inverter
Flexware system? At present an eight (or six) inverter Flexware system
suffers from the same problem that a two inverter E-panel does: all of
the bypass breakers aren't switched together; but they should be.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


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</x-flowed>
boB Gudgel
2007-11-30 19:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Ain?t competition grand? Some of us handle it better than others I
guess.
I will address the issues that were brought up.

AC bypass switch: This is a transfer switch. It does not need to be made
with circuit breakers. The MidNite bypass switch operates very smoothly
indeed. This is not an easy task. The AC bypass switches I designed at
Trace engineering, OutBack and MidNite are all similar, but slightly
different. They all meet the UL requirements and they all function
properly. It becomes a personal preference, not a safety or a NEC issue.
Transfer switches are not required to turn both circuits off at the same
time. Store bought transfer switches like the Square D at Trace work
like the MidNite bypass switch.

Separate bypass switches: This style of bypass is not as convenient as
one that operates two or more inverters at the same time, but it is not
a safety issue. Fifty thousand bypass switches that work like the
MidNite bypass have been installed from Trace, Xantrex, OutBack and
Midnite over the last 13 years or so. Remember, we use breakers in
place of the switches, so in the unlikely event that something went
wrong, the breaker would trip. I am not aware of a single instance where
this style bypass switch led to a problem. In a previous post, I
mentioned an upcoming product that addresses the issue of single vs.
dual vs. quad bypass switches. What this means is that you will have
more choices available soon for larger systems. 95% of the E-Panel
installations have been single inverters. Dual E-Panel installations do
not yet have such a clear cost advantage over the competition as the
single E-Panel installs.

Another accusation about our bypass switch has to do with moving both
the inverter output and the bypass breaker together at once. This is the
way we did it for years at OutBack and how it is now done at MidNite.
The OutBack bypass switches on dual and quads were changed to the
present configuration while I was still president of OutBack. I actually
made those changes. The reason for the change had nothing to do with
safety. We just couldn?t get all the tolerances down to make a smooth
operating switch, so we opened up the slots. This forces the user to
manually turn the one switch on after flipping the slider. It also
allows both breakers to be turned off. Either method is ok. NEC requires
a separate generator disconnect box if the generator is not within site
or is remote. This is more convenient and more obvious as the AC input
disconnect if done separately. My electrician installed a separate
generator input disconnect before the PS2 panel to meet code since my
generator is remotely located. The PS2 can turn off both breakers at the
same time, but my electrician did not believe this was adequate. Some
installations do not require a separate generator disconnect due to
proximity.

One more thought comes to mind to disconnect power?? How about turning
the inverter off! Use the big DC breaker or the inverter on/off switch.
The output is then isolated by the contacts inside the inverter relay.
Some installers add a 50 amp output disconnect breaker inside the
E-Panel when needed. This is another way to create a clearly labeled
method to disconnect the house loads. Since the issue here is to make
sure there is no power going to the house loads it would be wise to turn
the generator off before working on the system. As discussed here, there
can be disconnects installed before or after the power source. This is
not a requirement of the E-Panel to meet code. Thousands of E-Panels
have now been installed and inspected without issues.

Door grounding: The comment about our system being unsafe due to no
ground is false. Has anyone ever heard of putting a ground wire from the
equipment ground terminal on the inverter to the ground terminal in the
breaker box? All E-Panel doors come with a wiring diagram that clearly
shows the inverter grounded. Screws and star washers ground the inverter
to the chassis when shut, but to insure grounding while the door is
open, you should install a 6awg green THHN ground wire (follow the NEC
code). Equipment grounding is always required.

Cabling: The cables that run from the battery breaker and shunt to the
inverter do not loosen up. This issue was addressed at the beginning
with ETL before I started designing the E-Panel. The statement that our
design is going to cause a fire is just not true. The E-Panel is a
different kind of breaker box. I knew people would be taking pot shots
at it, so ETL and I reviewed the cabling and wiring issues early on.
This is not something that was slipped by the ETL inspector while he
wasn?t looking. I have been working with this same ETL engineer for over
a dozen years and believe me; he does not let anything through that does
not meet UL standards. Most of the Trace Engineering equipment, lots of
Xantrex, all of the OutBack, all of the Magnum, most of the PV Powered
and all of the Midnite products were evaluated by Tony Dorta of ETL.
Tony is very respected by manufacturers in the RE industry.

The MidNite E-Panel does not hold as many breakers as other boxes. That
is true. The Stretched OutBack E-Panel will accept up to 6 additional
field installed din rail mount breakers and two panel mount breakers in
addition to the AC bypass, AC input and inverter battery breaker. The
stretched OB E-Panel has mounting for up to four shunts at once.

Competition is good. False accusations are not. Per the moderator?s
request, this is a one time response. I consider this thread closed.
The market is pretty good at sorting out what they like.
I thank you for your support, past, present and future.
Robin Gudgel



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Mark Frye
2007-11-30 20:04:38 UTC
Permalink
The issue of the door grounding is interesting and the devil is in the
details.

Yes,a ground wire from the inverter to ground buss will ground the
inverter, but what about the sheet metal of the door itself. This a
piece of conductive material that could become energized, and must be
properly ground at all times, door open or door closed.

A standard method is to install a stud into both the door and the box
and use a braided ground strap to bond the door (see most Hoffman
enclosure with hinged doors).

Unless the door is properly bonded to the inverter chassis by some
specific method, it sounds like the MidNite falls short in meeting this
requirement.
Post by boB Gudgel
Ain?t competition grand? Some of us handle it better than others I
guess.
I will address the issues that were brought up.
AC bypass switch: This is a transfer switch. It does not need to be made
with circuit breakers. The MidNite bypass switch operates very smoothly
indeed. This is not an easy task. The AC bypass switches I designed at
Trace engineering, OutBack and MidNite are all similar, but slightly
different. They all meet the UL requirements and they all function
properly. It becomes a personal preference, not a safety or a NEC issue.
Transfer switches are not required to turn both circuits off at the same
time. Store bought transfer switches like the Square D at Trace work
like the MidNite bypass switch.
Separate bypass switches: This style of bypass is not as convenient as
one that operates two or more inverters at the same time, but it is not
a safety issue. Fifty thousand bypass switches that work like the
MidNite bypass have been installed from Trace, Xantrex, OutBack and
Midnite over the last 13 years or so. Remember, we use breakers in
place of the switches, so in the unlikely event that something went
wrong, the breaker would trip. I am not aware of a single instance where
this style bypass switch led to a problem. In a previous post, I
mentioned an upcoming product that addresses the issue of single vs.
dual vs. quad bypass switches. What this means is that you will have
more choices available soon for larger systems. 95% of the E-Panel
installations have been single inverters. Dual E-Panel installations do
not yet have such a clear cost advantage over the competition as the
single E-Panel installs.
Another accusation about our bypass switch has to do with moving both
the inverter output and the bypass breaker together at once. This is the
way we did it for years at OutBack and how it is now done at MidNite.
The OutBack bypass switches on dual and quads were changed to the
present configuration while I was still president of OutBack. I actually
made those changes. The reason for the change had nothing to do with
safety. We just couldn?t get all the tolerances down to make a smooth
operating switch, so we opened up the slots. This forces the user to
manually turn the one switch on after flipping the slider. It also
allows both breakers to be turned off. Either method is ok. NEC requires
a separate generator disconnect box if the generator is not within site
or is remote. This is more convenient and more obvious as the AC input
disconnect if done separately. My electrician installed a separate
generator input disconnect before the PS2 panel to meet code since my
generator is remotely located. The PS2 can turn off both breakers at the
same time, but my electrician did not believe this was adequate. Some
installations do not require a separate generator disconnect due to
proximity.
One more thought comes to mind to disconnect power?? How about turning
the inverter off! Use the big DC breaker or the inverter on/off switch.
The output is then isolated by the contacts inside the inverter relay.
Some installers add a 50 amp output disconnect breaker inside the
E-Panel when needed. This is another way to create a clearly labeled
method to disconnect the house loads. Since the issue here is to make
sure there is no power going to the house loads it would be wise to turn
the generator off before working on the system. As discussed here, there
can be disconnects installed before or after the power source. This is
not a requirement of the E-Panel to meet code. Thousands of E-Panels
have now been installed and inspected without issues.
Door grounding: The comment about our system being unsafe due to no
ground is false. Has anyone ever heard of putting a ground wire from the
equipment ground terminal on the inverter to the ground terminal in the
breaker box? All E-Panel doors come with a wiring diagram that clearly
shows the inverter grounded. Screws and star washers ground the inverter
to the chassis when shut, but to insure grounding while the door is
open, you should install a 6awg green THHN ground wire (follow the NEC
code). Equipment grounding is always required.
Cabling: The cables that run from the battery breaker and shunt to the
inverter do not loosen up. This issue was addressed at the beginning
with ETL before I started designing the E-Panel. The statement that our
design is going to cause a fire is just not true. The E-Panel is a
different kind of breaker box. I knew people would be taking pot shots
at it, so ETL and I reviewed the cabling and wiring issues early on.
This is not something that was slipped by the ETL inspector while he
wasn?t looking. I have been working with this same ETL engineer for over
a dozen years and believe me; he does not let anything through that does
not meet UL standards. Most of the Trace Engineering equipment, lots of
Xantrex, all of the OutBack, all of the Magnum, most of the PV Powered
and all of the Midnite products were evaluated by Tony Dorta of ETL.
Tony is very respected by manufacturers in the RE industry.
The MidNite E-Panel does not hold as many breakers as other boxes. That
is true. The Stretched OutBack E-Panel will accept up to 6 additional
field installed din rail mount breakers and two panel mount breakers in
addition to the AC bypass, AC input and inverter battery breaker. The
stretched OB E-Panel has mounting for up to four shunts at once.
Competition is good. False accusations are not. Per the moderator?s
request, this is a one time response. I consider this thread closed.
The market is pretty good at sorting out what they like.
I thank you for your support, past, present and future.
Robin Gudgel
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems


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boB Gudgel
2007-11-30 20:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Frye
The issue of the door grounding is interesting and the devil is in the
details.
Yes,a ground wire from the inverter to ground buss will ground the
inverter, but what about the sheet metal of the door itself. This a
piece of conductive material that could become energized, and must be
properly ground at all times, door open or door closed.
I would use a screw with star washer to make sure the inverter is
connected electrically to the door, or backplate or whatever it is
mounted to.... Not just E-Panels.

boB
Post by Mark Frye
A standard method is to install a stud into both the door and the box
and use a braided ground strap to bond the door (see most Hoffman
enclosure with hinged doors).
Unless the door is properly bonded to the inverter chassis by some
specific method, it sounds like the MidNite falls short in meeting this
requirement.
Post by boB Gudgel
Ain?t competition grand? Some of us handle it better than others I
guess.
I will address the issues that were brought up.
AC bypass switch: This is a transfer switch. It does not need to be made
with circuit breakers. The MidNite bypass switch operates very smoothly
indeed. This is not an easy task. The AC bypass switches I designed at
Trace engineering, OutBack and MidNite are all similar, but slightly
different. They all meet the UL requirements and they all function
properly. It becomes a personal preference, not a safety or a NEC issue.
Transfer switches are not required to turn both circuits off at the same
time. Store bought transfer switches like the Square D at Trace work
like the MidNite bypass switch.
Separate bypass switches: This style of bypass is not as convenient as
one that operates two or more inverters at the same time, but it is not
a safety issue. Fifty thousand bypass switches that work like the
MidNite bypass have been installed from Trace, Xantrex, OutBack and
Midnite over the last 13 years or so. Remember, we use breakers in
place of the switches, so in the unlikely event that something went
wrong, the breaker would trip. I am not aware of a single instance where
this style bypass switch led to a problem. In a previous post, I
mentioned an upcoming product that addresses the issue of single vs.
dual vs. quad bypass switches. What this means is that you will have
more choices available soon for larger systems. 95% of the E-Panel
installations have been single inverters. Dual E-Panel installations do
not yet have such a clear cost advantage over the competition as the
single E-Panel installs.
Another accusation about our bypass switch has to do with moving both
the inverter output and the bypass breaker together at once. This is the
way we did it for years at OutBack and how it is now done at MidNite.
The OutBack bypass switches on dual and quads were changed to the
present configuration while I was still president of OutBack. I actually
made those changes. The reason for the change had nothing to do with
safety. We just couldn?t get all the tolerances down to make a smooth
operating switch, so we opened up the slots. This forces the user to
manually turn the one switch on after flipping the slider. It also
allows both breakers to be turned off. Either method is ok. NEC requires
a separate generator disconnect box if the generator is not within site
or is remote. This is more convenient and more obvious as the AC input
disconnect if done separately. My electrician installed a separate
generator input disconnect before the PS2 panel to meet code since my
generator is remotely located. The PS2 can turn off both breakers at the
same time, but my electrician did not believe this was adequate. Some
installations do not require a separate generator disconnect due to
proximity.
One more thought comes to mind to disconnect power?? How about turning
the inverter off! Use the big DC breaker or the inverter on/off switch.
The output is then isolated by the contacts inside the inverter relay.
Some installers add a 50 amp output disconnect breaker inside the
E-Panel when needed. This is another way to create a clearly labeled
method to disconnect the house loads. Since the issue here is to make
sure there is no power going to the house loads it would be wise to turn
the generator off before working on the system. As discussed here, there
can be disconnects installed before or after the power source. This is
not a requirement of the E-Panel to meet code. Thousands of E-Panels
have now been installed and inspected without issues.
Door grounding: The comment about our system being unsafe due to no
ground is false. Has anyone ever heard of putting a ground wire from the
equipment ground terminal on the inverter to the ground terminal in the
breaker box? All E-Panel doors come with a wiring diagram that clearly
shows the inverter grounded. Screws and star washers ground the inverter
to the chassis when shut, but to insure grounding while the door is
open, you should install a 6awg green THHN ground wire (follow the NEC
code). Equipment grounding is always required.
Cabling: The cables that run from the battery breaker and shunt to the
inverter do not loosen up. This issue was addressed at the beginning
with ETL before I started designing the E-Panel. The statement that our
design is going to cause a fire is just not true. The E-Panel is a
different kind of breaker box. I knew people would be taking pot shots
at it, so ETL and I reviewed the cabling and wiring issues early on.
This is not something that was slipped by the ETL inspector while he
wasn?t looking. I have been working with this same ETL engineer for over
a dozen years and believe me; he does not let anything through that does
not meet UL standards. Most of the Trace Engineering equipment, lots of
Xantrex, all of the OutBack, all of the Magnum, most of the PV Powered
and all of the Midnite products were evaluated by Tony Dorta of ETL.
Tony is very respected by manufacturers in the RE industry.
The MidNite E-Panel does not hold as many breakers as other boxes. That
is true. The Stretched OutBack E-Panel will accept up to 6 additional
field installed din rail mount breakers and two panel mount breakers in
addition to the AC bypass, AC input and inverter battery breaker. The
stretched OB E-Panel has mounting for up to four shunts at once.
Competition is good. False accusations are not. Per the moderator?s
request, this is a one time response. I consider this thread closed.
The market is pretty good at sorting out what they like.
I thank you for your support, past, present and future.
Robin Gudgel
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Mark Frye
2007-11-30 20:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Indeed, but the questions arise, is this star washer specifically
documented in the installation literature? Is there ever a time when
the enclosure maybe in operation when the inverter is not installed?

Just look around at most every listed appliance with a door, especially
motor control centers, power distribution equipment, computer server
racks, etc. and you will see the door bonding strap. I haven't taken a
look at a Satcon or SMA 100kw inverter lately but I bet I would see them
there.

It seems pretty much an "industry" standard. Sure it's tough for the
small guy to meet every requirement, and no one could start into
business if they did, but that doesn't make the standard go away.
Post by boB Gudgel
I would use a screw with star washer to make sure the inverter is
connected electrically to the door, or backplate or whatever it is
mounted to.... Not just E-Panels.
boB
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boB Gudgel
2007-12-01 00:12:14 UTC
Permalink
So, it looks like something good and innovative has come out of this
very spirited discussion.

In a couple of weeks, you will be able to get an E-Panel bypass slider
with a punch out that, after a minute or 2 of modification, will enable
it to work like an OutBack slider where both breakers can be off at the
same time if you want. The E-Panel bypass slider will ship as it
presently does. There are some old sliders to be used up, but if the
newer slider is required now, just let MidNite know.

If you or the customer has a present/older E-Panel and would like to
change out the slider to the new kind, just email robin at midnitesolar.com
and ask for one. He will mail it to you free of charge.

Thanks,
boB

PS.... I inadvertently gave out the wrong area code for Magnum Energy
if you needed to talk to Eldon Whorton or Brian Faley about RFI issues.
(thanks Howie)

That should have been 425-353-8833
Post by boB Gudgel
Ain?t competition grand? Some of us handle it better than others I
guess.
I will address the issues that were brought up.
AC bypass switch: This is a transfer switch. It does not need to be made
with circuit breakers. The MidNite bypass switch operates very smoothly
indeed. This is not an easy task. The AC bypass switches I designed at
Trace engineering, OutBack and MidNite are all similar, but slightly
different. They all meet the UL requirements and they all function
properly. It becomes a personal preference, not a safety or a NEC issue.
Transfer switches are not required to turn both circuits off at the same
time. Store bought transfer switches like the Square D at Trace work
like the MidNite bypass switch.
Separate bypass switches: This style of bypass is not as convenient as
one that operates two or more inverters at the same time, but it is not
a safety issue. Fifty thousand bypass switches that work like the
MidNite bypass have been installed from Trace, Xantrex, OutBack and
Midnite over the last 13 years or so. Remember, we use breakers in
place of the switches, so in the unlikely event that something went
wrong, the breaker would trip. I am not aware of a single instance where
this style bypass switch led to a problem. In a previous post, I
mentioned an upcoming product that addresses the issue of single vs.
dual vs. quad bypass switches. What this means is that you will have
more choices available soon for larger systems. 95% of the E-Panel
installations have been single inverters. Dual E-Panel installations do
not yet have such a clear cost advantage over the competition as the
single E-Panel installs.
Another accusation about our bypass switch has to do with moving both
the inverter output and the bypass breaker together at once. This is the
way we did it for years at OutBack and how it is now done at MidNite.
The OutBack bypass switches on dual and quads were changed to the
present configuration while I was still president of OutBack. I actually
made those changes. The reason for the change had nothing to do with
safety. We just couldn?t get all the tolerances down to make a smooth
operating switch, so we opened up the slots. This forces the user to
manually turn the one switch on after flipping the slider. It also
allows both breakers to be turned off. Either method is ok. NEC requires
a separate generator disconnect box if the generator is not within site
or is remote. This is more convenient and more obvious as the AC input
disconnect if done separately. My electrician installed a separate
generator input disconnect before the PS2 panel to meet code since my
generator is remotely located. The PS2 can turn off both breakers at the
same time, but my electrician did not believe this was adequate. Some
installations do not require a separate generator disconnect due to
proximity.
One more thought comes to mind to disconnect power?? How about turning
the inverter off! Use the big DC breaker or the inverter on/off switch.
The output is then isolated by the contacts inside the inverter relay.
Some installers add a 50 amp output disconnect breaker inside the
E-Panel when needed. This is another way to create a clearly labeled
method to disconnect the house loads. Since the issue here is to make
sure there is no power going to the house loads it would be wise to turn
the generator off before working on the system. As discussed here, there
can be disconnects installed before or after the power source. This is
not a requirement of the E-Panel to meet code. Thousands of E-Panels
have now been installed and inspected without issues.
Door grounding: The comment about our system being unsafe due to no
ground is false. Has anyone ever heard of putting a ground wire from the
equipment ground terminal on the inverter to the ground terminal in the
breaker box? All E-Panel doors come with a wiring diagram that clearly
shows the inverter grounded. Screws and star washers ground the inverter
to the chassis when shut, but to insure grounding while the door is
open, you should install a 6awg green THHN ground wire (follow the NEC
code). Equipment grounding is always required.
Cabling: The cables that run from the battery breaker and shunt to the
inverter do not loosen up. This issue was addressed at the beginning
with ETL before I started designing the E-Panel. The statement that our
design is going to cause a fire is just not true. The E-Panel is a
different kind of breaker box. I knew people would be taking pot shots
at it, so ETL and I reviewed the cabling and wiring issues early on.
This is not something that was slipped by the ETL inspector while he
wasn?t looking. I have been working with this same ETL engineer for over
a dozen years and believe me; he does not let anything through that does
not meet UL standards. Most of the Trace Engineering equipment, lots of
Xantrex, all of the OutBack, all of the Magnum, most of the PV Powered
and all of the Midnite products were evaluated by Tony Dorta of ETL.
Tony is very respected by manufacturers in the RE industry.
The MidNite E-Panel does not hold as many breakers as other boxes. That
is true. The Stretched OutBack E-Panel will accept up to 6 additional
field installed din rail mount breakers and two panel mount breakers in
addition to the AC bypass, AC input and inverter battery breaker. The
stretched OB E-Panel has mounting for up to four shunts at once.
Competition is good. False accusations are not. Per the moderator?s
request, this is a one time response. I consider this thread closed.
The market is pretty good at sorting out what they like.
I thank you for your support, past, present and future.
Robin Gudgel
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Blair May
2007-11-29 00:43:20 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP





Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"


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</x-flowed>
Daryl DeJoy
2007-11-29 04:32:02 UTC
Permalink
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-11-29 04:38:55 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Tump,

Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?

The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.

Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,

jay

peltz power
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</x-flowed>
Blair May
2007-11-29 16:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Hey jay what are your thoughts on the idle current draw? also I find it
very noisy & yes the battery charging could be addressed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]



Hi Todd,

Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.

How do you like the magnum?

My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.

jay

peltz power


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Chris Worcester
2007-11-29 18:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Blair,
I should have written this back in April when we did a FW250 install last
spring. It was not sweet. In fact I have sworn them off until it goes back
to the drawing board. There was no way to do a code compliant install with
what was provided.
The toggle for the inverter bypass CB was just one issue I discussed with
tech support at length, before getting to the client's home. Tech support
agreed this didn't work. They had it out on the desk when I called! It
needed redesigning. Our client has a high profile system as he teaches
renewable energy at a local college. His system is a demonstration system.
I assumed the inherent design flaw issues I spent many hours discussing with
tech support over the course of a month in order to do a code compliant
install prior to this install would be addressed and rectified by now. I am
disappointed to hear they have not. I literally had the parts spread out
here for a month, attempting to make sense of it. (The manual seemed to have
gone to China and back with much lost in translation). NOT A GOOD USE OF
TIME & a complete let down coming from a company we have all grown to
respect. I finally came up with a Code compliant buss solution, buying ILSCO
(or NSI Polaris) Insultap 4,5,& 6 hole #4 to #14 AWG busses to make the
wiring up. I could have drilled & mounted in the Red, Black or White OB TBB
busses but this would void the ETL listing, as the box doesn't allow room
for insulated AC or DC busses. What a nightmare! And then there wasn't
breaker space on one side for the MX 60 CB's and a GFP/2(soon to be required
on all PV arrays by the NEC). Oh well we just put the other CB on the back
where you can see it holding a mirror.
The MidNite Solar E panel is a neatly engineered package that we now use
without hesitation after the FW250 experience.
If the FW500 & FW1000 are not any better than the FW250 what else are we
supposed to use?
I was quite comfortable with the PS2 & PS4 systems having installed many of
them.
We did 5 off grid systems last year ranging from 1 to 10 OB inverters in
size.
This year we've done many grid tie systems & 2 off grid with the E Panels.
Maybe the drawing board will see the FW line before we have our next
encounter.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
NABCEP Certified PV Installer TM
USA Distributor of Proven Wind Turbines
Toll Free: 877-682-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
chris at solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"

-----Original Message-----
From: Blair May [mailto:tump at hughes.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches-topica.com
Subject: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]


Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP





Tump at hughes.net
www.SWNL.net
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Designer & Installer"

******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"


--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 19:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.

I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.


"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"


boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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David Palumbo, Independent Power &amp; Light
2007-11-29 20:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Howie & all,

We have installed several Magnums with no complaints on the RF issue. I find
that the Magnums do have a few warts that have already been mentioned. But
they do have one great feature with their MS4448AE inverter with 120/240VAC
output from one inverter. It is an excellent value as it works well with
120/240 split phase generators as well as in powering 240v water pumps
without the need for 120/240VAC transformers. They say that they will have a
24 volt model with 120/240VAC output "soon".

I had a Magnum MS2812 in an off-grid rental house that I decided to swap out
for an OutBack inverter. The 12v Magnum had a 44 Watt no load power draw (as
I measured with a Fluke 87 to confirm the TriMetric's readings) vs the
OutBack at 20 Watts. Magnum admitted to a DC no-load power number of 30W, I
could not get my MS 2812 to draw less than 3.2 amps at 13.9 VDC. Magnum 24v
and 48v units have no-load power draws in line with OutBack. Magnum said
that in the future they would offer a 12VDC line of sine wave inverters that
had a more acceptable low power efficiency.

We are using mostly OutBack's, almost entirely on MidNite Stretch E-Panels,
and a growing number of Magnum 120/240v MS4448AE inverter/chargers on
E-Panels.
-DP

-----Original Message-----
From: Howie Michaelson [mailto:howie at suncatchervt.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Magnum Inverters (was Flex ware inverter bypass slide)
[RE-wrenches]



I installed a Magnum in my house after my SW bit the dust in a massive
lightning strike this past summer. I was excited to try a new inverter
out so I could offer my clients more than the OB since I will not install
another Xantrex product if I have the remotest choice. I wanted to test
it out before subjecting any customers to it, and I'm glad I did, sort of.
I too am pretty unhappy with the charge parameter settings - similar to
the DR. I also noticed a marketed increase in radio frequency noise in
the house and on the portable phones. Very disappointing since I would
have assumed that there would be at least no more RF interference from the
Magnum than from a 10 year old SW.

When I called Magnum support about these issues, first I was told that I
had no need for more variability in the charge parameters than they
offered, so there was no chance of any changes there. When I mentioned
that Robin Gudgel told me that Magnum was working on an upgrade that would
do just that, the tech check with the engineers and then allowed that in
fact they were working on something, but it would be released for at least
a year, and that I would have to get a new controller to be able to use
it. Even though they have advertised their equipment to be field
upgradable, and there was no offer to replace my unit.

About the RF he hinted that some others may have mentioned that concern,
but it wasn't a concern of Magnum's, and they hadn't any reason to believe
there was a problem - that the problem was on my end. It is possible
since I switched to an E-panel, that the mixing of the AC and DC wiring
may be having some effect that way, but Robin didn't seem to think that
should have any effect. I'm no electrical engineer so I've basically
dropped this issue for the time being, although my wife complains that she
cannot stand to listen to the radio anymore...

So at this time, I am not recommending the Magnum to anyone, as much for
the poor customer support as unhappiness with a few significant aspects of
their product. I do intend to use the E-panel more and echo the positive
comments about Robin's service, though he probably shouldn't answer the
phone so much. And I look forward to his release of their charge
controller, a new improved Lightning Arrestor which he has sort of
promised...

Howie

ps Has anyone else had RF issues with either the Magnum or the E-panel?

--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Hi Todd,
Since you are using the Magnum, that is the wide version.
How do you like the magnum?
My main issue is I don't like the battery charging parameters, too low.
jay
peltz power
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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 21:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...

Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.

No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.

boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 22:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howie Michaelson
So boB,
What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible
upgrades?
I believe that for the MS Sinewave inverter/chargers, custom battery
voltage setpoints will be available for units manufactured within the
last 6 to 9 months or so withOUT an upgrade to the inverter itself.
However, you would need a newer remote or a Magnum Hub/Router (sort of a
super remote) shipping in just a few months. An MS inverter built
before that time would need a control board swap-out as well as a remote
to control those custom setpoints. Unless Dave Allegre is REALLY fast
at his new remote control, (Dave did the SW Plus code at Xan-Trace), the
Magnum 6 port Hub/Router will be first to be able to control these
parameters.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Sorry... Can't say I know much about the RFI/EMI reduction schedule at
the moment.

(somebody mentioned the lower RFI on the SW I think)...
These high frequency inverters like the MS and OB and X-verters tend to
make more VHF and high shortwave interference, and the lower frequency
inverters (like mod-square and old SWs) tend to make more AM and lower
frequency shortwave interference because of the lower switching
frequencies and BIG sharp edge switching. Actually, both topologies
have sharp switching edges but the lower frequency units swing one BIG
voltage step at a low rate where the high frequency units swing a small
voltage at a repetition high rate to emulate the sinewave.

The comments regarding this RFI have been forwarded to the others here.
Maybe more info for you soon on this... We'll see. Of course, you can
be FCC Class B compliant and still make RFI. Or, you could be FCC
compliant and not have a sticker. Being a ham myself, I want the EMI to
be gone at my operating frequencies.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And any new info about the "Classic" ?
Well, it looks like that in about a month MidNite will be sending out
some pre-trial units (an alpha I guess you call it) and hopefully the
beta should follow a couple months after that. Some of you will be
working with us on that. As Robin says "engineers lie" about production
dates, and I really don't like to do that, so I think I will leave it at
that other than to say the Classic is looking (and has worked) REALLY
good and I KNOW you're going to like it. But that's not what you want
to hear... You just want the REAL thing !! (so do I)

boB
Post by Howie Michaelson
Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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boB Gudgel
2007-11-29 22:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Howie, can you and/or anybody else with MS RFI issues give Brian Faley a
call here at Magnum and let him know the specifics on your
application(s) issues on this ??

360-353-8833

Thanks,
boB
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Howie Michaelson
So boB,
What is the Magnum story on the charging parameters and possible
upgrades?
I believe that for the MS Sinewave inverter/chargers, custom battery
voltage setpoints will be available for units manufactured within the
last 6 to 9 months or so withOUT an upgrade to the inverter itself.
However, you would need a newer remote or a Magnum Hub/Router (sort of a
super remote) shipping in just a few months. An MS inverter built
before that time would need a control board swap-out as well as a remote
to control those custom setpoints. Unless Dave Allegre is REALLY fast
at his new remote control, (Dave did the SW Plus code at Xan-Trace), the
Magnum 6 port Hub/Router will be first to be able to control these
parameters.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And RF?
Sorry... Can't say I know much about the RFI/EMI reduction schedule at
the moment.
(somebody mentioned the lower RFI on the SW I think)...
These high frequency inverters like the MS and OB and X-verters tend to
make more VHF and high shortwave interference, and the lower frequency
inverters (like mod-square and old SWs) tend to make more AM and lower
frequency shortwave interference because of the lower switching
frequencies and BIG sharp edge switching. Actually, both topologies
have sharp switching edges but the lower frequency units swing one BIG
voltage step at a low rate where the high frequency units swing a small
voltage at a repetition high rate to emulate the sinewave.
The comments regarding this RFI have been forwarded to the others here.
Maybe more info for you soon on this... We'll see. Of course, you can
be FCC Class B compliant and still make RFI. Or, you could be FCC
compliant and not have a sticker. Being a ham myself, I want the EMI to
be gone at my operating frequencies.
Post by Howie Michaelson
And any new info about the "Classic" ?
Well, it looks like that in about a month MidNite will be sending out
some pre-trial units (an alpha I guess you call it) and hopefully the
beta should follow a couple months after that. Some of you will be
working with us on that. As Robin says "engineers lie" about production
dates, and I really don't like to do that, so I think I will leave it at
that other than to say the Classic is looking (and has worked) REALLY
good and I KNOW you're going to like it. But that's not what you want
to hear... You just want the REAL thing !! (so do I)
boB
Post by Howie Michaelson
Thanks,
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?
Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096
Post by boB Gudgel
Post by Blair May
Would someone explain why Robin is NOT allowed to post? Aren't there
Post by Blair May
other folks from manus that are allowed to post?
Hi Tump...
Manufacturers are allowed ONE (1) person to post to the wrenches list,
however I have seen one slip through with 2 allowed to post.
No biggie for me as long as someone is able to speak for a manufacturer.
For the moment, I'm the chosen one for MidNite Solar and Magnum Energy,
although I expect (and hope) that Gary Baxter or maybe Tony Boatwright
will join the list eventually.
boB
Post by Blair May
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:05:03
To:RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]
Post by Blair May
Hi Tump,
Yep thats the way it is, a real slick design no?
The old system on the PS2 units didn't either, but you could see and
get to both sides of the breakers much easier.
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly
jay
peltz power
Thanks Jay! Robin's not allowed to post so I will forward a comment
about the sliders. Evidently, that's a tricky thing to make work
properly.
I will make sure the Magnumees and Magnumites hear the concerns of the
list on the inverter/charger side of things.
"
The slider on our upcoming dual and quad system works perfectly too. It
took me years to figure out all the tolerances working on that darned
slider.
Thanks,
Robin
"
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
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MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC
boB Gudgel K7IQ
MidNite/Magnum Solar/Energy
Washington AC


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Tump - with all respect - I think this is not an issue with the design
of the FLEXware 250 AC bypass slider plate - but with your expectation
of what the AC bypass slider plate is suppose to do.

The purpose of the OutBack AC bypass slider plate is to prevent both of
the AC breakers from being turned to the "ON" position at the same time
- one breaker is the inverter output while the other is the bypass
breaker which connects the AC input to the AC output. When properly
installed, the OutBack AC bypass slider plate will also allow both of
the breakers to be put in the "OFF" position as well.

I think your issue is that the OutBack AC bypass slider plate on the
FLEXware 250 does not force one breaker to the ON position when the
other is switched to the OFF position - Correct?

This simply is just not possible to do AND allow both of the breakers to
also be set to the OFF positions which is a requirement of the NEC code,
UL standard and basic safe design.

It is true that the bypass slider plate used on the MIDNITE boxes does
force the other breaker to the ON position when the other is turned OFF
- but because of this, the design also prevents you from turning them
both to the OFF position - which is not compliant with the requirements
of the UL standards, the NEC code and basic safe design.

The MIDNITE bypass slider also does not allow the breaker to indicate
that is has tripped - which is another requirement of the UL standards,
NEC code and basic safe design.

So - please correct me if I am wrong here - but I think this is your
issue?

Also Note - You actually can make the one breaker go to the ON position
with the OutBack AC bypass slider plate simply by moving the breaker's
handle to the on position and allowing the bypass slider plate to do its
job - forcing the other breaker to trip to the off position before the
other breaker gets to the ON position. Just moving only the bypass
slider plate alone will not achieve this and is what I think your issue
is?
Post by Blair May
Ok would someone please let me in on the secret, I've followed the
directions & rechecked twice and it still doesn't place on set of
breakers off & the other set on. Any insight here folks would be
greatly appreciated thanks. TUMP
Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:41:33 UTC
Permalink
So - for you - I guess its because you prefer the "rocker" style AC
bypass we had used on the PS2 - which I actually liked better too - but
its just not possible to do this when you have multiple single pole
breakers to control with the AC bypass mechanism - as in a quad
configuration.

We went to the AC bypass slider plate configuration on all of the
FLEXware systems to make them more consistent to wire up... previously
the wiring on the PS2 was very different than the PS4 wiring...

I also don't understand then why anyone would like the MIDNITE slider
plate - it doesn't even allow you to read any of the ON / OFF labeling
or the amperage markings on the breakers! Its hole for the handle is
extremely tight and covers up the entire front of the breaker's face.

I also strongly disagree with the use of two separate bypasses for AC L1
and AC L2 when a dual inverter system is installed - this allows you to
bypass one leg of AC while the other is still on the inverter. This
will fry 240VAC motors and possibly fry common neutral branch circuits -
resulting in a fire hazard. Its simply not a safe and compliant design.


Any other opinions out there?

Do you think it is OK to not be able to turn off the AC bypass breaker?


Do you think having two separate bypasses when two inverters are stacked
is acceptable?

Tell me what you think - I'll be here all night if needed...

This is gonna get exciting I think...

Christopher
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
I'll chime in here.
The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the t
time its easy.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.
Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Daryl -

What is the issue exactly? Is it that it doesn't force the bypass
breaker to ON when you turn off the AC input breaker?
Post by Daryl DeJoy
We are having the same issue with a Flexware panel we just installed. It
does not seem to be a well constructed/properly functioning manual
bypass......Our panel (dual 3648's) was built by SunWize.
Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Walt Ratterman
2007-11-30 00:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Just thought I would chime in here.... Walt Ratterman

I have trained and installed dozens of Outback three phase and quad
systems in Africa and other remote applications, and I tend to think
that the system where the slider turns everything off, and then requires
manual intervention to turn what you want back on, is perfect. I tend
not to like everything being real automatic, without thought, and there
are lots of cases where we want to turn everything off, (without
bypassing the inverter and turning the inverter to load connection back
on.)

I am getting ready to install my first batch of Flexware three phase
systems in Africa as soon as the equipment gets there, and am hoping
this design is still pretty much the same.

(Chris: can you let me know if there are any parts or pieces that
usually came in the PSDC and PSAC boxes that don't come with the
flexware? Like TBB's, positive bus bar for the DC breakers, etc.
etc....Just want to be prepared.... when I get into the middle of
nowhere...

Thanks,

Walt

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
[mailto:cfreitas at outbackpower.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Flex ware inverter bypass slide [RE-wrenches]


So - for you - I guess its because you prefer the "rocker" style AC
bypass we had used on the PS2 - which I actually liked better too - but
its just not possible to do this when you have multiple single pole
breakers to control with the AC bypass mechanism - as in a quad
configuration.

We went to the AC bypass slider plate configuration on all of the
FLEXware systems to make them more consistent to wire up... previously
the wiring on the PS2 was very different than the PS4 wiring...

I also don't understand then why anyone would like the MIDNITE slider
plate - it doesn't even allow you to read any of the ON / OFF labeling
or the amperage markings on the breakers! Its hole for the handle is
extremely tight and covers up the entire front of the breaker's face.

I also strongly disagree with the use of two separate bypasses for AC L1

and AC L2 when a dual inverter system is installed - this allows you to
bypass one leg of AC while the other is still on the inverter. This
will fry 240VAC motors and possibly fry common neutral branch circuits -

resulting in a fire hazard. Its simply not a safe and compliant design.



Any other opinions out there?

Do you think it is OK to not be able to turn off the AC bypass breaker?



Do you think having two separate bypasses when two inverters are stacked

is acceptable?

Tell me what you think - I'll be here all night if needed...

This is gonna get exciting I think...

Christopher
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
I'll chime in here.
The main issue I have with the new design isn't that it turns on/off
its the lack of ease to turn the breakers on.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Its really hard to see in there. Sure for us that do it all the t
time its easy.
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
For me in comparing it to the one on the PS2 for example, very clear
to see which breakers were up/down and to put your fingers and move
the breakers you want to.
Its one of the many reasons that I like the PS vs the flexwear.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
because:

The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.

It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.

The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.

I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 00:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for the very good point Walt. I agree completely.

Being able to turn on the AC input to each inverter one at a time with
the bypass off is a real valuable capability when you are
troubleshooting a system or wiring problem. Its something we though
about in the design of the FLEXware product as well.

The parts included in the new FLEXware panels are very similar to the
older PS products - the only major change is that the brackets for the
charge controllers are not included anymore - they need to be ordered
separately. The new FLEXware panels are lighter and more corrosion
resistant (because they are aluminum) and are better arranged inside.

I think you will be very happy with them and able to appreciate the
improvements.

Christopher
Post by Walt Ratterman
Just thought I would chime in here.... Walt Ratterman
I have trained and installed dozens of Outback three phase and quad
systems in Africa and other remote applications, and I tend to think
that the system where the slider turns everything off, and then requires
manual intervention to turn what you want back on, is perfect. I tend
not to like everything being real automatic, without thought, and there
are lots of cases where we want to turn everything off, (without
bypassing the inverter and turning the inverter to load connection back
on.)
I am getting ready to install my first batch of Flexware three phase
systems in Africa as soon as the equipment gets there, and am hoping
this design is still pretty much the same.
(Chris: can you let me know if there are any parts or pieces that
usually came in the PSDC and PSAC boxes that don't come with the
flexware? Like TBB's, positive bus bar for the DC breakers, etc.
etc....Just want to be prepared.... when I get into the middle of
nowhere...
Thanks,
Walt
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:02:25 UTC
Permalink
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?

And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...

Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
With the generator input breaker off, switching to bypass shuts
everything off since you are bypassing to a de-energized circuit.
Todd
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
Post by Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
Whats funny is that Midnite solars box's work perfectly,
Perfectly Huh? I strongly disagree - the Midnite AC bypass is not safe
or compliant with the UL standards for a System Bypass or the NEC code
The AC bypass bypass slider plate does not allow you to set both circuit
breakers to the OFF position.
It also does not allow the handle of the circuit breaker to indicate
that it has tripped due to the extremely small opening for the handle in
the AC bypass slider plate.
The AC bypass slider plate also covers up the labeling on the breaker as
to the amperage and on/ off status.
I think these are serious safety issues with the Midnite product.
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:15:10 UTC
Permalink
OK - lets take the gloves off...

Sure the Midnite box cost less - it only works with one inverter - not
two! It also holds much fewer breakers and other components - such as
multiple shunts.

The door mounted inverter is the worst idea in my opinion - you can't
even open the door up much past 45 degrees with the cable provided - and
they put a lot of stress on the terminals of the breaker - which can
result in a loose connection that you don't even notice when the door is
open - which then causes a fire...

There are requirements for the routing of wires out to a door mounted
component which are not met by the Midnite "E" panel. Things like
strain relief loops and tie downs straps and dedicated space for the
wires to lay by the hinge - none of this is done in the E-panel.

Proper construction also usually involves a protective loom over the
wires to keep them from being damaged by sharp edges of other parts
inside (like the shunt) or being pinched and having the insulation on
the wires be damaged.

Another issue with the E-panel is that there is no ground wire provided
for the inverter chassis - this means that when the door is open the
chassis of the inverter is not grounded (the tabs they think are a hinge
do not provide any means of grounding) so if there was a ground fault in
the inverter itself the whole door could become electrified when you
open it - that's a really nice surprise...

The requirements in UL and NEC standards are there for a reason - to
protect you guys!

I think the inverter on the door idea is dangerous and just a bad idea
all round.

Any other opinions or comments?

Christopher

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Jay - thanks for the clarification - but here is my issue for you -

The AC input breaker only disconnects the power from the AC input of the
inverter - the AC bypass still has AC power connected to it even when
the AC input breaker is off.

When the Midnite AC bypass is set to the bypass mode - the AC loads are
then powered through the AC bypass breaker and there is no way to turn
off the power to the AC load center.

This doesn't seem acceptable to my understanding of the NEC.

Christopher

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 01:37:59 UTC
Permalink
You are referring to the AC input breaker which breaks the connection of
the AC source to the inverter's AC input - it does not disconnect the AC
source from the bypass breaker though.

So the customer goes to turn off the AC output and the bypass then
connects the AC source directly to the load panel. There is no way to
truly turn off the AC supply to the house unless an additional circuit
breaker is installed into the Midnite panel which is not explained in
their wiring diagrams or included with the product.

Does that make sense?

Christopher
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
To the left of the two, double pole circuit breakers on the Midnight
e-panel's bypass switch is a two pole, 30 amp generator input breaker.
There is no need to walk to the generator to disconnect it's output
power when the inverter input breaker is right there on the e-panel.
Todd
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 02:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Miller
We just installed our first Flexware 500 system. I did not see any
problem with the by-pass slider. I noted that a year or so ago the
openings for the breaker handles were enlarged so both could be shut off
at the same time. I appreciate this improvement. I have never been
under the impression that the slider was used to actuate the breakers--
you have to get your fingers directly on the handles-- but rather to
prevent both breakers from being turned on at the same time.
Yes - that is the point I have been trying to make - William said it
better...
Post by William Miller
I do miss the 2" KO from the AC box into the ACA adapter, I'll pull one
myself the next install.
This is being addressed we originally did not think we could get the 2"
k.o. into the new ACA housing with the new surge/lightning protector
installed into it - turns out we did. So soon there will be larger
knockouts for this connection.
Post by William Miller
Regarding the X240, once we figured out how to mount it, we found it did
not impede our access to the busses greatly. We pre-wire all of these
systems at our shop which requires pre-installing the X240 into the AC
cabinet prior to mounting the cabinet on the back board. Here's our
X240 mounting tip: We use two 1/4X20 flat head machine screws installed
from the back side of the AC cabinet. This secures the X240 for wiring
and transport. When the AC cabinet is placed on the backboard, you can
loosen the 2 nuts and slide the X240 until you can put the remaining two
screws through the X240 tabs, through the back of the AC cabinet and
into the threaded inserts in the back board.
Just to be clear - there are threaded holes in the FLEXware mounting
plate for the installation of the X-240 transformer. I guess what
William is describing is wiring up the AC box without the backplate and
then later installing it onto the backplate at the site?
Post by William Miller
While I am at it, here's our FX mounting tip: Take two of the longest
mounting screws. Cut the heads off with a Dremel cut-off wheel and
grind two screwdriver slots in the exposed shafts. These become your
positioners. Pre thread all FX mounting screws into back plate to
create threads. Install the two positioners into the back board. Lift
the inverter onto the positioner studs. Install two mounting screws--
lift the FX slightly while tightening screws to take pressure off of the
positioners. Remove positioners and install two remaining screws.
We actually do provide two longer screws that can be installed into the
threaded holes from the back of the mounting plate PRIOR to the mounting
plate being installed onto the wall. These two "studs" are between the
two mounting holes on each end of the inverter. They support the
inverter while installing it it onto the wall and do not need to be
removed once the inverter has been screwed down. It makes the inverters
able to be installed / removed by a single person.

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 03:05:23 UTC
Permalink
I think we are agreeing on most of this - other than one critical point:

On both the OutBack and Midnite AC bypass systems - the AC input or Gen
input breaker does not disconnect power from the bypass breaker - they
are not connected in series - each has there own connection to the AC
input bus inside the enclosure.

So turning off the AC input breaker does disconnect power to the
inverter. We agree here.

Switching the AC output breaker to the "OFF" position also disconnects
the inverter from the AC loads. We agree here too.

On the Midnite AC bypass system - turning off the AC output breaker for
the inverter forces the AC bypass breaker to the ON position. This is
the flaw and is what is not acceptable in my opinion.

If the generator was on when a problem occurred with an AC load -
turning the AC input breaker off results in the inverter still powering
the loads. Switching the AC output breaker OFF then turns the bypass to
the ON position - connecting the generator directly to the loads.

The only solution I see with this system is installing another breaker
into the system for shutting off the generator to the entire system.

With the OutBack AC bypass plate system - this is not required - you
simply switch all of the breakers to the off position and nothing is
energized.

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-11-30 03:20:36 UTC
Permalink
William - I reviewed your diagram and although it works - it is not the
normal way that we expected the X-240 to be connected.

For a single 120VAC inverter with a 120/240 VAC generator your
configuration is acceptable - but normally the breaker would be
installed where it is switching both of the two hot wires for the
transformer and another two pole breaker would be installed just as a
generator disconnect / overload protection. Your configuration does
eliminate this second breaker by using the one supplied with the X-240
for both functions.

Your configuration limits both L1 and L2 to the 25 amp maximum of the
X-240 breaker - a regular configuration would allow higher currents on
leg 1 of the generator but only 25 amps on leg 2. This may or may not
be a good idea. Most generators will tolerate up to a 50% imbalance
without any problem - its just bad when you are using only one AC output
leg and leaving the other disconnected and trying to get more than 50%
of the generator's ratings from it.

The X-240 when used in a balancing configuration is effectively self
limiting - if too much imbalance occurs then it inherently limits the
current in most conditions so as to not let the breaker trip. Its
tricky to work out and harder to explain - but its why we rarely hear of
any problems with them and if we do its almost always a wiring error or
so easy to fix issue such as balancing the loads better.

We retested the X-240 and with our current US manufacturer together with
the larger aluminum enclosures we found out that the cooling fan was not
required even at the 25 amp current level and higher ambient
temperatures. If you need a higher current rating we advise going to
the PSX-240 which has its own enclosure and is rated at 6000 watts
versus 4000 watts and has a 30 amp breaker and built-in cooling fan. Its
on the OutBack pricelist.

Christopher
Post by William Miller
Todd raises an important question here: Where in the circuit should the
generator input breaker be located? I like to be able to de-energize
all
of the busses in a given enclosure without having to walk any
distance. If, however, the generator disconnect is prior to the
generator
buses, opening the generator breaker disables the bypass system.
Another feature I desire is to be able to de-energize generator feed to
the
inverter(s). If you are bypassing the inverter, it has most likely
failed. If it failed catastrophically (or "let the smoke out", as we
way),
you need to remove both DC and AC feeds to it so it does not catch
fire. To do this and still allow bypass operation, you need a breaker
after the generator buss, right?
Adding to this input conundrum are the breakers for the X-240 if one is
generator balancing. So, to do an installation with a 240 VAC generator
and one inverter correctly, one needs four sets of breakers: 1: 2 pole
gen
input breaker, 2: 2 poleX240 breaker, 3: at least one pole FX input
breaker
and, 4: the bypass breaker. This is a lot of breakers required to just
get
Generator power into one inverter!! This is why I always advocate for
the
four position Outback system even for one inverter. It has so much more
breaker space!
One relief I have for this situation is to use the X-240 breaker as the
generator input breaker. Considering this case were we are converting
the
generator from 120 to 240 VAC, we are feeding the generator directly
into
the X240 anyway. Furthermore, if the amount of generator current we can
feed through the X-240 is limited to 25 AAC, this is the breaker to
use. See link: http://mpandc.com/case_studies/case_studies.html
Lastly, Christopher Freitas, a question for you: In the Flexware 500,
where are we supposed to mount the cooling fan???
William Miller
Post by Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
So you are saying that its OK that the operator has to walk all the way
out to where the generator is to shut off its circuit breaker in order
to disconnect all sources of power from the loads?
And you think this is acceptable and code compliant? Come on now...
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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