Discussion:
Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
(too old to reply)
Kirpal Khalsa
2009-10-08 01:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 01:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

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Mick Abraham
2009-10-08 01:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman <
wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048?s in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
> SI?s, we used 2 ? FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad ? we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery ?
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH ? on your other question?I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
> Rolls now has AGM?s that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 01:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mick,



The way I understand it, the DC switch on the SI is really an on off switch
and not a circuit breaker. SMA recommends that the system has other
overcurrent protection. The main value of the DC switch that I could see is
that it provides an easier re-set point. (There are some power saving
conditions that require re-setting rather than auto-re-start.)



And.. Since Outback has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted in this
configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to be mounted in this
fashion. Worth checking though, of course. I do know that you are not
supposed to mount the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
flexware, where you would have to reach under the can to operate the
breaker...)



Thanks,



Walt

SEPI







From: Mick Abraham [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675



On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman
<wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

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Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org





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Kent Osterberg
2009-10-08 05:18:26 UTC
Permalink
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Mark Dickson
2009-10-08 14:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Kirpal,

Just the other week I was faced with the exact same issue. I spoke with
Robin over at Midnight and he confirmed that a Not-a-Gutter could be used
with four SI's. He was sure that you could use two on top and two on the
bottom, but that did not work for me due to size restrictions. He was then
going to look at the possibility of placing two on top and one on each end
of the gutter. You may want to check it out!



Best regards,



Mark Dickson

Oasis Montana Inc.





_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 11:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



SMA uses a breaker for the switch in Sunny Island. Technically, it isn't a
"disconnect" because it is part of equipment that may need to be removed for
service.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc


Walt Ratterman wrote:

Hello Mick,



The way I understand it, the DC switch on the SI is really an on off switch
and not a circuit breaker. SMA recommends that the system has other
overcurrent protection. The main value of the DC switch that I could see is
that it provides an easier re-set point. (There are some power saving
conditions that require re-setting rather than auto-re-start.)



And.. Since Outback has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted in this
configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to be mounted in this
fashion. Worth checking though, of course. I do know that you are not
supposed to mount the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
flexware, where you would have to reach under the can to operate the
breaker...)



Thanks,



Walt

SEPI







From: Mick Abraham [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675




On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman
<wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


_______________________________________________

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Mark Dickson
2009-10-08 14:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Kirpal,

Just the other week I was faced with the exact same issue. I spoke with
Robin over at Midnight and he confirmed that a Not-a-Gutter could be used
with four SI's. He was sure that you could use two on top and two on the
bottom, but that did not work for me due to size restrictions. He was then
going to look at the possibility of placing two on top and one on each end
of the gutter. You may want to check it out!



Best regards,



Mark Dickson

Oasis Montana Inc.





_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 11:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



SMA uses a breaker for the switch in Sunny Island. Technically, it isn't a
"disconnect" because it is part of equipment that may need to be removed for
service.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc


Walt Ratterman wrote:

Hello Mick,



The way I understand it, the DC switch on the SI is really an on off switch
and not a circuit breaker. SMA recommends that the system has other
overcurrent protection. The main value of the DC switch that I could see is
that it provides an easier re-set point. (There are some power saving
conditions that require re-setting rather than auto-re-start.)



And.. Since Outback has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted in this
configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to be mounted in this
fashion. Worth checking though, of course. I do know that you are not
supposed to mount the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
flexware, where you would have to reach under the can to operate the
breaker...)



Thanks,



Walt

SEPI







From: Mick Abraham [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675




On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman
<wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


_______________________________________________

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Kent Osterberg
2009-10-08 05:18:26 UTC
Permalink
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August Goers
2009-10-08 18:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Wrenches,

I'm looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let's say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We've been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I've also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 17:20:19 UTC
Permalink
August and Max,



If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can span a greater distance.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



August - we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers? <http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1> &bc=100|1006|1281&forward=1) to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



_____

From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




Hi Wrenches,



I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.



Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August



August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-13 01:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Bill, what about using the weeb bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)



Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


August and Max,

If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit
is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then
grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up
those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you
can span a greater distance.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

August
- we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to
protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1)
to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the
years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....



________________________________

From:August Goers
<august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hi Wrenches,

I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with
dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring
between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively
makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the
raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-13 14:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Max,



I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).



My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Bill, what about using the weeb bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)



Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



_____

From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




August and Max,



If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can span a greater distance.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



August - we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers? <http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1> &bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1) to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

_____

From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hi Wrenches,



I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.



Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August



August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

-------------- next part --------------
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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-14 21:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max




________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all
those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly
the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is
mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use
outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the
equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys
of exterior wiring.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill, what about using the weeb
bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps
and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time
this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley
product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)


Max
Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks
<billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays



August and Max,

If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit
is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding
bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those
bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can
span a greater distance.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

August - we've been using 1/2"
emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual
"minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1)
to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the
years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

________________________________

From:August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Hi Wrenches,

I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with
dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring
between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively
makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the
raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-14 23:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Max,



Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max



_____

From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




Max,



I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).



My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.



Bill.



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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-14 23:18:59 UTC
Permalink
You're right Bill, It's not and the best method is to have a uninterrupted bare copper in layin lugs at each rail then into the j-box. We always check the ground to see what we have as far as resistance. We built a lot of high rise electrical projects during the 80's and early 90's. Every now and then I walk some of those jobs - lots of power strut and strut clamps or Mini's, but I never see much corrosion, even after all these years exposed on the roof.




________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07:18 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring


Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t
think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly
as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think
it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It
probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a
bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for
any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit
conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far
bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management
of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job
of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is
nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is
anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill,
as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks)
and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to
the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the
need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb
ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails
with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows,
we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run
in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done
on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps
and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between
rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the
junction box and down..........

Max


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks
<billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays



Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties
all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long
time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set
screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it..
It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be
impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is
too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.
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R Ray Walters
2009-10-15 01:07:39 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
> Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2
> conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job
> of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting
> conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially
> available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about
> this???
>
> Bill.

Yes, Bill I'm totally behind you. I'm very tired of trying to invent
wire management products in the field. Ever since we lost our module j
boxes......
We use Pro Solar's rails as defacto wire trays, but it really should
be listed for that, and have conduit adapters, etc.
Solve this problem and array grounding, and there will hardly be
anything left for us to bitch about.

Ray

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William Miller
2009-10-15 04:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Bill:

Hear, hear. I believe I have ranted about this before. Conduit was
invented for this purpose, it just needs a trade size knock out to connect
to. I think this is called a module J-box.

William





At 04:07 PM 10/14/2009, you wrote:
>Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective
>means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade
>after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone
>else ticked off about this???
>
>Bill.
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August Goers
2009-10-16 00:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Bill ?

I can?t agree with you more about the lack of good products to route and protect rooftop wiring in an effective and efficient manner. That lead me to prompt the ?Rooftop wiring? post in the first place. It seems like a wide open market but maybe it?s just too small (currently...) Brian Wiley would probably have some good insight on this issue. Things are changing ? we?ll fix this issue sooner or later.

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max

________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.

-------------- next part --------------
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Nick Soleil
2009-10-16 04:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Aloha Solar Bozos
It's hard not to be upset, but I don't believe that racking manufacturers should be held accountable for this alone. I have always felt that the module manufacturers should be responsible for wire management. Why are the module frames not constructed with channels in the frames for wire management; a snap in channel that could hold a few USE-2 conductors. Perhaps the modules could snap together.
A few companies have provided solutions for competent wire management, especially for BIPV products. But the majority of the module manufacturers leave the MC connectors loose, to be chewed on by squirells. Like my neighbors squirells, a whole family got shorted out and fried chewing on the homerun cables in a Sunframe racked system. The poor family chewed through the conductors, and then completed the circuit, with themselves in the middle.
These days, I am still utilizing wire clips, such as the stainless ones Wiley Electronics supplies. Additionally, I run my USE-2 homeruns with UV zipties to the rails. However, I look forward to a better solution!
The BP Integra system attempts to incorporate the module interconnects and homerun conductors into the system. It has a channel on the top and bottom edge of the module, which allows for a few homeruns, and the conductors are contained in sidecaps on the sides of the array. We finalled a 10 KW Integra system yesterday, and I love the attractive look. However, aspects of the design could certainly be improved.
- The edges of the wire management channel seem a bit sharp, why not soften that edge.

- The j-box mounting method is somewhat awkward.
- The modules can wobble, when installed as per the design and installation manuals.

Of course, it is easier to accomplish competent wire management when the frames and modules are integrated into a single system. With all the new investements in our industry, maybe we will finally see some leadership here.


________________________________
From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thu, October 15, 2009 5:42:48 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring


Bill ?

I can?t agree with you more about the lack of good products to
route and protect rooftop wiring in an effective and efficient manner. That
lead me to prompt the ?Rooftop wiring? post in the first place. It seems like
a wide open market but maybe it?s just too small (currently...) Brian Wiley
would probably have some good insight on this issue. Things are changing ? we?ll
fix this issue sooner or later.

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I
don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is
nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I
don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated
fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting
conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to
rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding
conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of
sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is
the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers
still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and
protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially
available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill,
as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks)
and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to
the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the
need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb
ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails
with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows,
we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run
in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done
on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps
and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows
then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction
box and down..........

Max


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays


Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties
all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this.. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long
time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set
screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it..
It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be
impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is
too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20091015/e5b7e2f0/attachment.htm>
Nick Soleil
2009-10-16 04:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Aloha Solar Bozos
It's hard not to be upset, but I don't believe that racking manufacturers should be held accountable for this alone. I have always felt that the module manufacturers should be responsible for wire management. Why are the module frames not constructed with channels in the frames for wire management; a snap in channel that could hold a few USE-2 conductors. Perhaps the modules could snap together.
A few companies have provided solutions for competent wire management, especially for BIPV products. But the majority of the module manufacturers leave the MC connectors loose, to be chewed on by squirells. Like my neighbors squirells, a whole family got shorted out and fried chewing on the homerun cables in a Sunframe racked system. The poor family chewed through the conductors, and then completed the circuit, with themselves in the middle.
These days, I am still utilizing wire clips, such as the stainless ones Wiley Electronics supplies. Additionally, I run my USE-2 homeruns with UV zipties to the rails. However, I look forward to a better solution!
The BP Integra system attempts to incorporate the module interconnects and homerun conductors into the system. It has a channel on the top and bottom edge of the module, which allows for a few homeruns, and the conductors are contained in sidecaps on the sides of the array. We finalled a 10 KW Integra system yesterday, and I love the attractive look. However, aspects of the design could certainly be improved.
- The edges of the wire management channel seem a bit sharp, why not soften that edge.

- The j-box mounting method is somewhat awkward.
- The modules can wobble, when installed as per the design and installation manuals.

Of course, it is easier to accomplish competent wire management when the frames and modules are integrated into a single system. With all the new investements in our industry, maybe we will finally see some leadership here.


________________________________
From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thu, October 15, 2009 5:42:48 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring


Bill ?

I can?t agree with you more about the lack of good products to
route and protect rooftop wiring in an effective and efficient manner. That
lead me to prompt the ?Rooftop wiring? post in the first place. It seems like
a wide open market but maybe it?s just too small (currently...) Brian Wiley
would probably have some good insight on this issue. Things are changing ? we?ll
fix this issue sooner or later.

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I
don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is
nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I
don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated
fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting
conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to
rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding
conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of
sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is
the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers
still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and
protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially
available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill,
as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks)
and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to
the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the
need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb
ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails
with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows,
we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run
in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done
on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps
and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows
then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction
box and down..........

Max


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays


Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties
all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this.. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long
time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set
screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it..
It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be
impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is
too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.



-------------- next part --------------
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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-14 23:18:59 UTC
Permalink
You're right Bill, It's not and the best method is to have a uninterrupted bare copper in layin lugs at each rail then into the j-box. We always check the ground to see what we have as far as resistance. We built a lot of high rise electrical projects during the 80's and early 90's. Every now and then I walk some of those jobs - lots of power strut and strut clamps or Mini's, but I never see much corrosion, even after all these years exposed on the roof.




________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07:18 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring


Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t
think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly
as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think
it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It
probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a
bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for
any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit
conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far
bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management
of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job
of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is
nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is
anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill,
as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks)
and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to
the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the
need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb
ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails
with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows,
we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run
in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done
on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps
and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between
rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the
junction box and down..........

Max


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks
<billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays



Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties
all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long
time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set
screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it..
It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be
impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is
too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.
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R Ray Walters
2009-10-15 01:07:39 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
> Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2
> conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job
> of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting
> conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially
> available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about
> this???
>
> Bill.

Yes, Bill I'm totally behind you. I'm very tired of trying to invent
wire management products in the field. Ever since we lost our module j
boxes......
We use Pro Solar's rails as defacto wire trays, but it really should
be listed for that, and have conduit adapters, etc.
Solve this problem and array grounding, and there will hardly be
anything left for us to bitch about.

Ray

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William Miller
2009-10-15 04:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Bill:

Hear, hear. I believe I have ranted about this before. Conduit was
invented for this purpose, it just needs a trade size knock out to connect
to. I think this is called a module J-box.

William





At 04:07 PM 10/14/2009, you wrote:
>Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective
>means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade
>after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone
>else ticked off about this???
>
>Bill.
-------------- next part --------------
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August Goers
2009-10-16 00:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Bill ?

I can?t agree with you more about the lack of good products to route and protect rooftop wiring in an effective and efficient manner. That lead me to prompt the ?Rooftop wiring? post in the first place. It seems like a wide open market but maybe it?s just too small (currently...) Brian Wiley would probably have some good insight on this issue. Things are changing ? we?ll fix this issue sooner or later.

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max

________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.

Bill.

-------------- next part --------------
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-14 23:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Max,



Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don?t think so. It may make an electrical connection, but I don?t think it is nearly as good as a ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don?t think it is as durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It probably doesn?t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a bonding conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for any circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over?there are far bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors?this is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this???



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max



_____

From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




Max,



I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).



My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.



Bill.



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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-14 21:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to the rails with the Weeb Bonding Clips. If the array consists of tilted rows, we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and down..........

Max




________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Max,

I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The
WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to
the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all
those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit
system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to
effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only
means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently
on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of
concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than
not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set
screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully
rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between
the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no
oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly
the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is
mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use
outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the
equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys
of exterior wiring.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

Bill, what about using the weeb
bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps
and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time
this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley
product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)


Max
Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810


________________________________

From:Bill Brooks
<billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays



August and Max,

If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit
is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding
bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those
bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can
span a greater distance.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

August - we've been using 1/2"
emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual
"minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1)
to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the
years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

________________________________

From:August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Hi Wrenches,

I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with
dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring
between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively
makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the
raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-13 14:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Max,



I?m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don?t like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).



My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time?possibly the life of the system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, not the bonding point?rust locks it.. It is best to use outdoor-rated equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior wiring.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Bill, what about using the weeb bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)



Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



_____

From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




August and Max,



If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can span a greater distance.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



August - we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers? <http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1> &bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1) to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

_____

From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hi Wrenches,



I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.



Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August



August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-13 01:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Bill, what about using the weeb bonding method for the panels, conduit between sub arrays with mineralac clamps and then the weeb grounding lug for
the ground wire to the combiner box and then home to the panel. The only time this has been an issue is where the jurisdiction doesn't accept the Wiley product.....
(I never liked what the sun does to PVC conduit)



Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



________________________________
From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 10:20:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


August and Max,

If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit
is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then
grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up
those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you
can span a greater distance.

Bill.

From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max
Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
subarrays

August
- we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to
protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1)
to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the
years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....



________________________________

From:August Goers
<august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hi Wrenches,

I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with
dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring
between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively
makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the
raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 17:20:19 UTC
Permalink
August and Max,



If all you are doing in supporting the conductors, PVC conduit is sufficient with protective bushings on each end. Once you go to EMT, then grounding bushings must be installed at both ends and the EGC needs to pick up those bushings. More expensive and time consuming, but it looks better and you can span a greater distance.



Bill.



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



August - we've been using 1/2" emt between arrays with plastic bushings to protect wires and a dual "minerallac" clamps ( http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers? <http://minerallac.thomasnet.com/viewitems/pipe-fasteners/ll-categories-cully-pipe-fasteners-conduit-hangers?&bc=100%7C1006%7C1281&forward=1> &bc=100|1006|1281&forward=1) to tie the conduits to the riser on the array support. Has worked well over the years and the inspectors like the "bond" between the arrays.....

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810



_____

From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:07:08 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays




Hi Wrenches,



I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.



Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August



August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

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August Goers
2009-10-08 18:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

As a follow up to my last post on multiple subarray wiring methods I'd like to hear opinions on running bare copper ground wires inside EMT.

The following Galvanic explanation and chart would seem to indicate that it is not acceptable which is always what I've been taught:

http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

However, I inspect PV installations on a regular basis and commonly see bare copper in EMT with no significant signs of corrosion. Maybe they're not old enough?

Thanks,

August


August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 01:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mick,



The way I understand it, the DC switch on the SI is really an on off switch
and not a circuit breaker. SMA recommends that the system has other
overcurrent protection. The main value of the DC switch that I could see is
that it provides an easier re-set point. (There are some power saving
conditions that require re-setting rather than auto-re-start.)



And.. Since Outback has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted in this
configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to be mounted in this
fashion. Worth checking though, of course. I do know that you are not
supposed to mount the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
flexware, where you would have to reach under the can to operate the
breaker...)



Thanks,



Walt

SEPI







From: Mick Abraham [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675



On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman
<wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


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August Goers
2009-10-08 18:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Wrenches,

I'm looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on rooftops. Let's say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We've been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I've also used strut with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.

Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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August Goers
2009-10-08 18:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

As a follow up to my last post on multiple subarray wiring methods I'd like to hear opinions on running bare copper ground wires inside EMT.

The following Galvanic explanation and chart would seem to indicate that it is not acceptable which is always what I've been taught:

http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

However, I inspect PV installations on a regular basis and commonly see bare copper in EMT with no significant signs of corrosion. Maybe they're not old enough?

Thanks,

August


August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
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William Miller
2009-10-08 02:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Walt:

Fascinating collection of photographs. Your projects are ambitious and far
flung.

I brought over a hardware item from the broadcast industry: Lacing
strips: http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/cablem/cablem.htm#lbars

I have a few photos on our web site of the
implementation:
http://millersolar.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/SW_Upgrade/SW_Upgrade.html

Thanks for sharing the photos.

William Miller


At 06:26 PM 10/7/2009, you wrote:
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_023B_01CA477B.AFEDFEC0"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>Hello Kirpal,
>
>Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048?s in a three phase
>configuration.
>
>For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
>Outback Flexware equipment.
>
>We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
>the SI?s, we used 2 ? FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad ? we
>actually needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really
>well for your system.
>
>Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
>learn about as well.
>
>You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery ?
>linked form our Home Page at <http://www.sunepi.org>www.sunepi.org. Click
>on the cover for the photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health
>Works / SELF project.
>
>Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>OH ? on your other question
I have no experience on large sealed banks,
>but Rolls now has AGM?s that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes,
>and then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>Thanks!!
>
>Walt
-------------- next part --------------
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Howie Michaelson
2009-10-08 02:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Walter, Kirpal,

Nice install in Burundi! I'm wondering about the battery cables - how did
you connect the battery lugs on the 2/0 (?) cable to the SI's? Is this an
SMA approved adaptation? I like the use of the FW1000's.

We just finished a retrofit of a legacy off-grid double dual stack Trace
SW5548, using 4 SI5048's in a double split-phase configuration to replace
them. We used 6x6 trough below the four inverters for our DC in and AC
out cables, reused the 2 old Trace dual DC 175 amp disconnects for the
battery connections, and a backfed load panel for combining the AC outputs
with each SI backfeeding in on its own 60 amp single pole breaker. We did
this so we could use the main lugs to land the 500' feeder wires supplying
the main house panel which is in a separate building. We liked using the
trough, although the FW seems like a good option if one didn't already
have the DC breaker setup.

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, October 7, 2009 9:26 pm, Walt Ratterman wrote:
>
> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback
> Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
> the
> SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for
> your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks,
> but
> Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate
> our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice,
> experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a
> standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good
> for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking
> seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 03:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Howie,

There was no adaptation. The SI landing pads are designed to take the
crimped lug that we installed on the battery cable from the inverter
breakers.

Thanks,

Walt

-----Original Message-----
From: Howie Michaelson [mailto:howie at suncatchervt.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Walt Ratterman
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries

Walter, Kirpal,

Nice install in Burundi! I'm wondering about the battery cables - how did
you connect the battery lugs on the 2/0 (?) cable to the SI's? Is this an
SMA approved adaptation? I like the use of the FW1000's.

We just finished a retrofit of a legacy off-grid double dual stack Trace
SW5548, using 4 SI5048's in a double split-phase configuration to replace
them. We used 6x6 trough below the four inverters for our DC in and AC
out cables, reused the 2 old Trace dual DC 175 amp disconnects for the
battery connections, and a backfed load panel for combining the AC outputs
with each SI backfeeding in on its own 60 amp single pole breaker. We did
this so we could use the main lugs to land the 500' feeder wires supplying
the main house panel which is in a separate building. We liked using the
trough, although the FW seems like a good option if one didn't already
have the DC breaker setup.

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, October 7, 2009 9:26 pm, Walt Ratterman wrote:
>
> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback
> Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
> the
> SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for
> your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks,
> but
> Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate
> our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice,
> experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a
> standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good
> for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking
> seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 03:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Howie,

There was no adaptation. The SI landing pads are designed to take the
crimped lug that we installed on the battery cable from the inverter
breakers.

Thanks,

Walt

-----Original Message-----
From: Howie Michaelson [mailto:howie at suncatchervt.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Walt Ratterman
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries

Walter, Kirpal,

Nice install in Burundi! I'm wondering about the battery cables - how did
you connect the battery lugs on the 2/0 (?) cable to the SI's? Is this an
SMA approved adaptation? I like the use of the FW1000's.

We just finished a retrofit of a legacy off-grid double dual stack Trace
SW5548, using 4 SI5048's in a double split-phase configuration to replace
them. We used 6x6 trough below the four inverters for our DC in and AC
out cables, reused the 2 old Trace dual DC 175 amp disconnects for the
battery connections, and a backfed load panel for combining the AC outputs
with each SI backfeeding in on its own 60 amp single pole breaker. We did
this so we could use the main lugs to land the 500' feeder wires supplying
the main house panel which is in a separate building. We liked using the
trough, although the FW seems like a good option if one didn't already
have the DC breaker setup.

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, October 7, 2009 9:26 pm, Walt Ratterman wrote:
>
> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback
> Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
> the
> SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for
> your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks,
> but
> Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate
> our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice,
> experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a
> standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good
> for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking
> seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
Mick Abraham
2009-10-08 01:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi, two questions:

(1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC disconnect breaker
for the connection to battery?

(2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes restricted for
"vertical installation only"?

I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up (maybe) so I look
forward to these answers.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt Ratterman <
wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048?s in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
> SI?s, we used 2 ? FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad ? we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery ?
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH ? on your other question?I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
> Rolls now has AGM?s that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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William Miller
2009-10-08 02:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Walt:

Fascinating collection of photographs. Your projects are ambitious and far
flung.

I brought over a hardware item from the broadcast industry: Lacing
strips: http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/cablem/cablem.htm#lbars

I have a few photos on our web site of the
implementation:
http://millersolar.com/practices/Technical_Procedures/SW_Upgrade/SW_Upgrade.html

Thanks for sharing the photos.

William Miller


At 06:26 PM 10/7/2009, you wrote:
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_023B_01CA477B.AFEDFEC0"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>Hello Kirpal,
>
>Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048?s in a three phase
>configuration.
>
>For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
>Outback Flexware equipment.
>
>We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
>the SI?s, we used 2 ? FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad ? we
>actually needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really
>well for your system.
>
>Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
>learn about as well.
>
>You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery ?
>linked form our Home Page at <http://www.sunepi.org>www.sunepi.org. Click
>on the cover for the photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health
>Works / SELF project.
>
>Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>OH ? on your other question
I have no experience on large sealed banks,
>but Rolls now has AGM?s that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes,
>and then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>Thanks!!
>
>Walt
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20091007/98c104da/attachment-0001.htm>
Howie Michaelson
2009-10-08 02:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Walter, Kirpal,

Nice install in Burundi! I'm wondering about the battery cables - how did
you connect the battery lugs on the 2/0 (?) cable to the SI's? Is this an
SMA approved adaptation? I like the use of the FW1000's.

We just finished a retrofit of a legacy off-grid double dual stack Trace
SW5548, using 4 SI5048's in a double split-phase configuration to replace
them. We used 6x6 trough below the four inverters for our DC in and AC
out cables, reused the 2 old Trace dual DC 175 amp disconnects for the
battery connections, and a backfed load panel for combining the AC outputs
with each SI backfeeding in on its own 60 amp single pole breaker. We did
this so we could use the main lugs to land the 500' feeder wires supplying
the main house panel which is in a separate building. We liked using the
trough, although the FW seems like a good option if one didn't already
have the DC breaker setup.

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, October 7, 2009 9:26 pm, Walt Ratterman wrote:
>
> Hello Kirpal,
>
>
>
> Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.
>
>
>
> In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
> configuration.
>
>
>
> For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the
> Outback
> Flexware equipment.
>
>
>
> We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of
> the
> SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
> needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for
> your
> system.
>
>
>
> Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
> learn about as well.
>
>
>
> You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
> linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
> photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.
>
>
>
> Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.
>
>
>
> OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks,
> but
> Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
> then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.
>
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
> 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
> need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate
> our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice,
> experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
> GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a
> standby
> grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good
> for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
> negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
> service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
> recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking
> seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
> recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
> should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
> battery bank?
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
Darryl Thayer
2009-10-08 01:33:35 UTC
Permalink
good luck, be careful not to parallel the sealed batteries, the steeper temp/voltage curve increases the possibility of thermal runaway. C&D makes a good sealed battery, check with battery services group, or C&D also Trojan makes smaller sealed batteries. I like Outback because of the battery monitoring/control capability of the FNDC.
Darryl

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 8:14 PM
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny
> Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system installation.....We have
> mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load
> centers with main breakers and other DC load and charging
> breakers......
>
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback
> Flexware DC 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and
> therefore will need four main breakers......? We primarily
> need a breaker box to locate our main DC breakers coming
> from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences would be
> appreciated......
>
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience
> or advice on the GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the
> East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby grid connected back up
> battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep
> discharges not negatively affecting the health of the
> batteries.....This is the type of service we expect the
> batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations of
> one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece
> free......any recommendations on a good supplier on the west
> coast?? Any other brands i should be looking at in the
> sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
>
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
Darryl Thayer
2009-10-08 02:12:52 UTC
Permalink
two issues, if a breaker is mounted vertical the on position is NEC supposed to be up.
But the bigger issue is DC breakers have arc chutes, these rely on the arc gases rising and breaking over the arc chutes. (some of them have magnets to force the arc over the chutes.) The interrupting capacity of the breaker is severely compromised if the breaker is mounted on its side or upside down. (this I state based on theory and observation)
Darryl

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Walt Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

> From: Walt Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
> To: "'Mick Abraham'" <mick at abrahamsolar.com>, "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 8:50 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Mick,
>
> ?
>
> The way I understand it, the DC
> switch on the SI is really an on
> off switch and not a circuit breaker.? SMA recommends
> that the system has other
> overcurrent protection.? The main value of the DC
> switch that I could see is
> that it provides an easier re-set point.? (There are
> some power saving
> conditions that require re-setting rather than
> auto-re-start.)
>
> ?
>
> And?.? Since Outback
> has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted
> in this configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to
> be mounted in this fashion.?
> Worth checking though, of course.? I do know that you
> are not supposed to mount
> the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
> flexware, where you
> would have to reach under the can to operate the
> breaker?..)
>
> ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> ?
>
> Walt
>
> SEPI
>
> ?
>
> ?
>
> ?
>
>
>
> From: Mick Abraham
> [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
>
> To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load
> Centers, Sealed
> Batteries
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Hi, two
> questions:
>
>
>
> (1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC
> disconnect breaker for
> the connection to battery?
>
>
>
> (2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes
> restricted for
> "vertical installation only"?
>
>
>
> I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up
> (maybe) so I look forward
> to these answers.
>
>
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
>
>
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt
> Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello
> Kirpal,
>
> ?
>
> Walt Ratterman
> here.? I can respond
> to at least the first part.
>
> ?
>
> In Burundi, we
> used three 5 KW Sunny
> Island 5048?s in a three phase configuration.?
>
>
> ?
>
> For all of the DC
> and AC breakers,
> wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback Flexware
> equipment.
>
> ?
>
> We put the DC on
> the bottom and the AC
> on the top.? Due to the width of the SI?s, we
> used 2 ? FW1000 systems to
> do this.? (And I am glad ? we actually needed
> all of the wiring
> space.? I think it would work really well for your
> system.
>
> ?
>
> Of course, there
> may be some other good
> choices that I would be anxious to learn about as
> well.
>
> ?
>
> You can see some
> good photos of this
> installation at our photo gallery ? linked form our
> Home Page at www.sunepi.org.? Click
> on
> the cover for the photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village
> Health Works / SELF
> project.
>
> ?
>
> Feel free to
> holler if you need any
> specifics on how we did anything here.
>
> ?
>
> OH ? on your
> other question?I have no
> experience on large sealed banks, but Rolls now has
> AGM?s that start at T-105
> size, include the 8G8D sizes, and then go all the way up to
> 2V 3300 Ah.
>
> ?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> ?
>
> Walt
>
> ?
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
>
> To: RE-wrenches
>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers,
> Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Hi
> Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC
> Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex
> battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load
> centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
>
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback
> Flexware DC 500's?
> or 1000's?
>
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and
> therefore will need
> four main breakers......? We primarily need a breaker
> box to locate our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any
> advice, experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
>
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience
> or advice on the GNB
> Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII
> as a standby grid
> connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they
> are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep
> discharges not negatively
> affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type
> of service we expect
> the batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations
> of one brand over
> the other.....The vertical stacking seems convenient as far
> as space is
> concerned.....maintenece free......any recommendations on a
> good supplier on
> the west coast?? Any other brands i should be looking
> at in the sealed
> battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
>
> 100 thanks !
>
> --
>
> Sunny Regards,
>
> Kirpal Khalsa
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>
> Renewable Energy Systems
>
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>
> 541-218-0201 m
>
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> Options & settings:
>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
>
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>
>
> Check out participant bios:
>
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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toddcory
2009-10-08 04:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Why do you limit your selection to sealed batteries? I highly recommend Surrettes FC-420. These are flooded, lead calcium batteries in a L-16 case. In the last 12 months my home system's set has not used any noticable amount of electrolyte. Rated for 15 years, and should easily last 20+, IMO this is the best battery out there for grid tied with battery backup systems.

Todd

On Wednesday, October 7, 2009 6:14pm, "Kirpal Khalsa" <solarworks at gmail.com> said:

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
[http://www.oregonsolarworks.com] www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o
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William Miller
2009-10-09 17:38:05 UTC
Permalink
August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller







At 11:07 AM 10/8/2009, you wrote:

>Hi Wrenches,
>
>I'm looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on
>rooftops. Let's say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of
>separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between
>these arrays? We've been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
>consuming. I've also used strut with a cap strip on the top which
>effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground
>both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.
>
>Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August
>

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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R Ray Walters
2009-10-09 17:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use
product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:

> August:
>
> I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high
> voltage, high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time
> consuming, but high quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be
> thus.
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 11:07 AM 10/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Wrenches,
>>
>> I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
>> subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial
>> system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks
>> run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes
>> and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut
>> with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway
>> but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and
>> is also time consuming.
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August
>>
>
> Please note new e-mail address and domain:
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
> email: william at millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>

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William Miller
2009-10-09 19:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
>outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
>On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:
>
>>August:
>>
>>I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage,
>>high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
>>quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.
>>
>>William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>>
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August Goers
2009-10-09 19:56:52 UTC
Permalink
All -

PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:

[cid:image002.jpg at 01CA48DF.F8EAE150]

You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down. Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for shaded areas.

As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).

As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in wire raceways.

-August


August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
august at luminalt.com

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:


August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller



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William Miller
2009-10-09 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
August:

As discussed, PVC is sometimes the best solution in a corrosive
environment. I would never recommend supporting PVC as depicted in the
photos. Shooting a screw through comp roofing is questionable at
best. Better methods of installing PVC are available, including better
straps and painting for UV protection.

I might add that although I would not tolerate brown PVC, UV browning does
not render the conduit unusable. The browning is only a few microns
thick. This is why the conduit says "UV resistant".

For hangers, I suggest a better anchoring system. We use aluminum strut
with stainless fasteners and hangers. From our previous life as a tower
rigging firm we have brought over stainless telecommunications
hardware:
http://awapps.commscope.com/catalog/andrew/product_details.aspx?id=13158
This is available in various sizes

William Miller



At 11:26 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>Content-Language: en-US
>Content-Type: multipart/related;
>
>boundary="_004_29A77A075EE0674CB6040A8B3B716734AAC371AAMBX04exg5exghos_";
> type="multipart/alternative"
>
>All ?
>
>PVC doesn?t hold up well in the Bay Area ? Here?s a photo of some ~4 year
>old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:
>
>83877e5.jpg
>
>
>You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
>Thank goodness we didn?t install this. PCV seems like a good option for
>shaded areas.
>
>As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the
>conduit to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find
>outdoor rated bonding bushings ? that?s why we?ve just been installing
>cast metal boxes with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).
>
>As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
>must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that?s why
>commercial low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems
>with built in wire raceways.
>
>-August
>
>
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Hans Frederickson
2009-10-09 21:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Thanks August... these images of PVC strapped to the roof, with a joint
totally failing after only 4 years, are a great reminder to follow the code
(some of this is new for 2008):

NEC 352.20 (fasten PVC such that movement from thermal effects is permitted)
NEC 352.44 (use expansion fittings to compensate for thermal
expansion/contraction)
NEC Table 310.15/B/2/c (ambient temp adjustment for conduits exposed to sun
/ rooftops)

These are _minimum_ requirements. We're installing these systems to last 40+
years. I beg to differ that PVC is easer/cheaper to install on a rooftop
when compared to EMT, if we're looking at a long-term installation. Between
summer highs and winter lows, that PVC is going to be moving all over the
place, and the only thing holding it together is glue and straps. It takes a
lot of patience and know-how to install PVC correctly in that kind of
environment, using expansion couplings with straps that allow movement in
the right places and hold the conduit tight where you don't want it to move
(e.g. where it enters a box). Here again is the link to the Carlon guide to
expansion fittings. Definitely read this if you're installing PVC conduit
where it will see large temperature swings:

http://www.carlon.com/Installation_Training/IT-ISEXPJT.pdf

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of standing behind a rooftop PVC
installation for anything close to the lifespan of a PV system. Given the
overall cost of a PV system, I think it's incredibly short sighted to save a
few bucks this way on the initial installation, as evidenced by August's
photos of the Marin County system.

If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

________________________________

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com
R Ray Walters
2009-10-09 23:21:57 UTC
Permalink
EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer


>
> If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from
> rust
> with a coat of paint.
>
> Regards,
> -Hans
>

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William Miller
2009-10-10 00:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good
workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of
materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion
environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate
expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme
environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy
ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with
quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to
exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope
that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I
belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power
feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of
European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor
costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other
markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold.
>I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5
>years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
>Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
>expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>>
>>If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
>>with a coat of paint.
>>
>>Regards,
>>-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Drake Chamberlin
2009-10-10 14:12:55 UTC
Permalink
I've noticed a lot of PVC in Colorado turning white from the sun
after a couple of years. Maybe its strength is not compromised, but
it looks really bad. Is there any type of paint that could go on
PVC to keep bleaching or browning from happening?

Thanks,




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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William Miller
2009-10-10 14:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Fusion


At 07:12 AM 10/10/2009, you wrote:
>I've noticed a lot of PVC in Colorado turning white from the sun after a
>couple of years. Maybe its strength is not compromised, but it
>looks really bad. Is there any type of paint that could go on PVC to
>keep bleaching or browning from happening?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
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William Miller
2009-10-10 14:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Fusion


At 07:12 AM 10/10/2009, you wrote:
>I've noticed a lot of PVC in Colorado turning white from the sun after a
>couple of years. Maybe its strength is not compromised, but it
>looks really bad. Is there any type of paint that could go on PVC to
>keep bleaching or browning from happening?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
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Joel Davidson
2009-10-10 01:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

U.S. electricians have different rooftop wiring and conduit options that worked successfully before PV and work well with PV. The same holds true for Europe. I've seen bad and sloppy work on both sides of the pond. John Berdner and others familiar with European wiring practices and double-insulated wire will attest that are safe and have performed well for decades before PV. Let's face it. Knowledgeable and discerning European customers would never spend billions of Euros on gigawatts on poorly wired solar arrays. Sure, it drives good electricians crazy to see European array wiring laying loose on roofs just as it bothers us to see poor quality wiring anywhere. Email me off-list for German wiring examples in a presentation about double-insulated wire.

Joel Davidson

----- Original Message -----
From: William Miller
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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List sponsored by Home Power magazine

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August Goers
2009-10-10 18:35:48 UTC
Permalink
William -

I agree with you about a no-shortcuts and full workmanship plan of attack. That is how we will all stay in business and continue to make local scale PV a success. However, when we dissect the details of running between multiple array sections I still don't see a good solution. I'm glad to use EMT or aluminum or stainless conduit but there are several code questionable violations which we must address. If we're using a metal raceway we need to address bonding. How do we bond both ends of the conduit? How do we run our ground wire through this raceway? Is it okay if the copper wire touches the conduit? How do we bond the conduit to actually meet NEC requirements? I'm starting to think that the NEC doesn't have the answers...

-August


From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer




If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
<http://millersolar.com/>License No. C-10-773985
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-10 19:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Hello guys...



I believe (but I can be wrong) that the code is pretty clear on this.



. No problem with the metal conduit.

. Use bonding bushing on the ends (to be sure that the conduit is
bonded)

. No problem with the ground wire touching the conduit - in fact the
bond bushing is to assure that it does a good job of it.



Thanks,



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 11:36 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



William -



I agree with you about a no-shortcuts and full workmanship plan of attack.
That is how we will all stay in business and continue to make local scale PV
a success. However, when we dissect the details of running between multiple
array sections I still don't see a good solution. I'm glad to use EMT or
aluminum or stainless conduit but there are several code questionable
violations which we must address. If we're using a metal raceway we need to
address bonding. How do we bond both ends of the conduit? How do we run our
ground wire through this raceway? Is it okay if the copper wire touches the
conduit? How do we bond the conduit to actually meet NEC requirements? I'm
starting to think that the NEC doesn't have the answers.



-August





From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship.
It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and
careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC
if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum
and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding
aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with
quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to
exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope
that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I
belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power
feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of
European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs.
I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to
verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I
love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years.
I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion
problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer





If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com <http://millersolar.com/>
License No. C-10-773985

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Drake Chamberlin
2009-10-11 14:38:28 UTC
Permalink
At 02:35 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote:
>. How do we bond both ends of the conduit?

How about using a water pipe clamps on the EMT. A bare copper, # 6
or larger, should be able to be run outside the conduit, as it is a
bond between sub arrays. My reading is that, from the combiner box
on, an equipment grounding conductor would need to be inside the conduit.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-13 00:44:13 UTC
Permalink
If your talking about conduit runs between arrays, we've always used minerallac clamps to attach to either the riser, or the frame, depending on the tilt angle and accessibility. The inspector has always accepted this as bonding between arrays.....

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems

760-403-6810




________________________________
From: Drake Chamberlin <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:38:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

At 02:35 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote:

. How do we bond both ends of
>the conduit?
How about using a water pipe clamps on the
EMT. A bare copper, # 6 or larger, should be able to be run outside
the conduit, as it is a bond between sub arrays. My reading is
that, from the combiner box on, an equipment grounding conductor
would need to be inside the conduit.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Max Balchowsky
2009-10-13 00:44:13 UTC
Permalink
If your talking about conduit runs between arrays, we've always used minerallac clamps to attach to either the riser, or the frame, depending on the tilt angle and accessibility. The inspector has always accepted this as bonding between arrays.....

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems

760-403-6810




________________________________
From: Drake Chamberlin <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:38:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

At 02:35 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote:

. How do we bond both ends of
>the conduit?
How about using a water pipe clamps on the
EMT. A bare copper, # 6 or larger, should be able to be run outside
the conduit, as it is a bond between sub arrays. My reading is
that, from the combiner box on, an equipment grounding conductor
would need to be inside the conduit.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
-------------- next part --------------
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-10 19:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Hello guys...



I believe (but I can be wrong) that the code is pretty clear on this.



. No problem with the metal conduit.

. Use bonding bushing on the ends (to be sure that the conduit is
bonded)

. No problem with the ground wire touching the conduit - in fact the
bond bushing is to assure that it does a good job of it.



Thanks,



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 11:36 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



William -



I agree with you about a no-shortcuts and full workmanship plan of attack.
That is how we will all stay in business and continue to make local scale PV
a success. However, when we dissect the details of running between multiple
array sections I still don't see a good solution. I'm glad to use EMT or
aluminum or stainless conduit but there are several code questionable
violations which we must address. If we're using a metal raceway we need to
address bonding. How do we bond both ends of the conduit? How do we run our
ground wire through this raceway? Is it okay if the copper wire touches the
conduit? How do we bond the conduit to actually meet NEC requirements? I'm
starting to think that the NEC doesn't have the answers.



-August





From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship.
It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and
careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC
if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum
and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding
aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with
quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to
exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope
that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I
belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power
feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of
European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs.
I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to
verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I
love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years.
I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion
problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer





If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com <http://millersolar.com/>
License No. C-10-773985

-------------- next part --------------
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Drake Chamberlin
2009-10-11 14:38:28 UTC
Permalink
At 02:35 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote:
>. How do we bond both ends of the conduit?

How about using a water pipe clamps on the EMT. A bare copper, # 6
or larger, should be able to be run outside the conduit, as it is a
bond between sub arrays. My reading is that, from the combiner box
on, an equipment grounding conductor would need to be inside the conduit.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
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Drake Chamberlin
2009-10-10 14:12:55 UTC
Permalink
I've noticed a lot of PVC in Colorado turning white from the sun
after a couple of years. Maybe its strength is not compromised, but
it looks really bad. Is there any type of paint that could go on
PVC to keep bleaching or browning from happening?

Thanks,




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648
-------------- next part --------------
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Joel Davidson
2009-10-10 01:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

U.S. electricians have different rooftop wiring and conduit options that worked successfully before PV and work well with PV. The same holds true for Europe. I've seen bad and sloppy work on both sides of the pond. John Berdner and others familiar with European wiring practices and double-insulated wire will attest that are safe and have performed well for decades before PV. Let's face it. Knowledgeable and discerning European customers would never spend billions of Euros on gigawatts on poorly wired solar arrays. Sure, it drives good electricians crazy to see European array wiring laying loose on roofs just as it bothers us to see poor quality wiring anywhere. Email me off-list for German wiring examples in a presentation about double-insulated wire.

Joel Davidson

----- Original Message -----
From: William Miller
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays


Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

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www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

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August Goers
2009-10-10 18:35:48 UTC
Permalink
William -

I agree with you about a no-shortcuts and full workmanship plan of attack. That is how we will all stay in business and continue to make local scale PV a success. However, when we dissect the details of running between multiple array sections I still don't see a good solution. I'm glad to use EMT or aluminum or stainless conduit but there are several code questionable violations which we must address. If we're using a metal raceway we need to address bonding. How do we bond both ends of the conduit? How do we run our ground wire through this raceway? Is it okay if the copper wire touches the conduit? How do we bond the conduit to actually meet NEC requirements? I'm starting to think that the NEC doesn't have the answers...

-August


From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer




If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
<http://millersolar.com/>License No. C-10-773985
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Jeff Clearwater
2009-10-10 14:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Colleagues,

What are folks thoughts on how IMC conduit weathers near the coast?
Is this an upgrade that might be a better alternative than plastic?

Jeff C.
Village Power Design




>EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
>hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
>through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy
>you.
>Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
>expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>>
>>If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
>>with a coat of paint.
>>
>>Regards,
>>-Hans
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Options & settings:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List-Archive:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List rules & etiquette:
>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>Check out participant bios:
>www.members.re-wrenches.org


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
gosolar at villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3776
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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August Goers
2009-10-10 16:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ray -

What coastal region or regions are you familiar with? I'm really only familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area but thoroughly painted EMT seems to hold up through the long haul even just a few blocks from the ocean. If it isn't painted the straps and fittings start rusting in less than a year. I imagine that warmer and more tropical coastal regions would indeed rot EMT out in no time.

As a separate note, San Francisco now requires the use of fittings listed for use in wet locations. These "wet loc" fittings we've been using for the last few years seem to hold up quite well.

-August

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 4:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer



If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

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R Ray Walters
2009-10-10 17:20:27 UTC
Permalink
I deal with New Mexico/ Colorado/ Texas for my inland experience, and
Hawaii/ Mexico for my coastal experience.
Hawaii is hard core enough that many main service boxes are Stainless.
New Mexico requires the wet loc fittings for EMT with the integrated
plastic seals. We use our old stock of regular compression fittings
indoors now.
I want to try the Polyetheylene conduit system, but I've never
actually seen it used. It is listed in the NEC though, and has a much
lower coefficient of expansion.
I don't know how it will perform relative to UV, though. The black PE
plumbing pipe I've used holds up very well to UV, just never tried the
electrical version.
I'm not even sure what fittings you would use with it.
Anybody have experience?

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:33 AM, August Goers wrote:

> Hi Ray ?
>
> What coastal region or regions are you familiar with? I?m really
> only familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area but thoroughly painted
> EMT seems to hold up through the long haul even just a few blocks
> from the ocean. If it isn?t painted the straps and fittings start
> rusting in less than a year. I imagine that warmer and more tropical
> coastal regions would indeed rot EMT out in no time.
>
> As a separate note, San Francisco now requires the use of fittings
> listed for use in wet locations. These ?wet loc? fittings we?ve been
> using for the last few years seem to hold up quite well.
>
> -August
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-
> bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 4:22 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
> subarrays
>
> EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
> hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
> through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy
> you.
> Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
> expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
> R. Walters
> ray at solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
> If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from
> rust
> with a coat of paint.
>
> Regards,
> -Hans
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>

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R Ray Walters
2009-10-10 17:20:27 UTC
Permalink
I deal with New Mexico/ Colorado/ Texas for my inland experience, and
Hawaii/ Mexico for my coastal experience.
Hawaii is hard core enough that many main service boxes are Stainless.
New Mexico requires the wet loc fittings for EMT with the integrated
plastic seals. We use our old stock of regular compression fittings
indoors now.
I want to try the Polyetheylene conduit system, but I've never
actually seen it used. It is listed in the NEC though, and has a much
lower coefficient of expansion.
I don't know how it will perform relative to UV, though. The black PE
plumbing pipe I've used holds up very well to UV, just never tried the
electrical version.
I'm not even sure what fittings you would use with it.
Anybody have experience?

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:33 AM, August Goers wrote:

> Hi Ray ?
>
> What coastal region or regions are you familiar with? I?m really
> only familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area but thoroughly painted
> EMT seems to hold up through the long haul even just a few blocks
> from the ocean. If it isn?t painted the straps and fittings start
> rusting in less than a year. I imagine that warmer and more tropical
> coastal regions would indeed rot EMT out in no time.
>
> As a separate note, San Francisco now requires the use of fittings
> listed for use in wet locations. These ?wet loc? fittings we?ve been
> using for the last few years seem to hold up quite well.
>
> -August
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-
> bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 4:22 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple
> subarrays
>
> EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
> hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
> through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy
> you.
> Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
> expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
> R. Walters
> ray at solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
> If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from
> rust
> with a coat of paint.
>
> Regards,
> -Hans
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>

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William Miller
2009-10-10 00:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Colleagues:

I think the correct answer is: there are no short cuts to good
workmanship. It requires intelligent design, a judicious selection of
materials and careful installation. EMT is appropriate in low corrosion
environments, PVC if you can control UV damage and accommodate
expansion. There are aluminum and stainless conduits for the extreme
environments and demanding aesthetics. I am sorry that there are no easy
ways to pursue quality.

It is my understanding that the European model is to "plug and pray" with
quick connect cables, running them across roof tops and stapling them to
exterior walls. I don't know this for a fact, but if it is true, I hope
that market does not drive the US market towards reduced standards. I
belive it is short sighted to skimp on wiring methods with dangerous power
feeds. I think the loss of conduit boxes on modules is a direct result of
European installation techniques and a trend towards reducing labor
costs. I welcome information from those of you with experience in other
markets to verify these hunches.

William Miller



At 04:21 PM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold.
>I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5
>years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
>Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
>expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>>
>>If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
>>with a coat of paint.
>>
>>Regards,
>>-Hans

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Jeff Clearwater
2009-10-10 14:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Colleagues,

What are folks thoughts on how IMC conduit weathers near the coast?
Is this an upgrade that might be a better alternative than plastic?

Jeff C.
Village Power Design




>EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
>hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
>through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy
>you.
>Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
>expansion problems of PVC.
>
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>>
>>If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
>>with a coat of paint.
>>
>>Regards,
>>-Hans
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Options & settings:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List-Archive:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List rules & etiquette:
>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>Check out participant bios:
>www.members.re-wrenches.org


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
gosolar at villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3776
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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August Goers
2009-10-10 16:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ray -

What coastal region or regions are you familiar with? I'm really only familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area but thoroughly painted EMT seems to hold up through the long haul even just a few blocks from the ocean. If it isn't painted the straps and fittings start rusting in less than a year. I imagine that warmer and more tropical coastal regions would indeed rot EMT out in no time.

As a separate note, San Francisco now requires the use of fittings listed for use in wet locations. These "wet loc" fittings we've been using for the last few years seem to hold up quite well.

-August

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 4:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer



If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

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R Ray Walters
2009-10-09 23:21:57 UTC
Permalink
EMT needs to be "pickled" with vinegar or acid, to get the paint to
hold. I love it for inland work, but near the ocean, it'll rust
through in 5 years. I'm not sure how much more time paint would buy you.
Anybody use other plastic materials HDPE? Supposed to not have the
expansion problems of PVC.


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer


>
> If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from
> rust
> with a coat of paint.
>
> Regards,
> -Hans
>

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Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 21:55:20 UTC
Permalink
August,



Home Depot now sells bonding bushings for EMT down to ??, which should solve
the availability issue. I was very surprised to see them last trip to the HD
money pit.



Bill.

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August Goers
2009-10-10 16:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Bill and all -

Good old home depot. Are these bushings you speak of similar to the one pictured here?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000UEDU6M/ref=asc_df_B000UEDU6M915738?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtmp386263-20&creative=380345&creativeASIN=B000UEDU6M&linkCode=asm

If so, I'm wondering if these are rated for outdoor use. I found one link that seems to mention that they are indeed rated for indoor and outdoor use but that would surprise me since the lay in lug is made of aluminum and I don't think the screws are stainless. I thought only tin coated copper lugs with stainless hardware are good for outdoors.

My other question is if we run, for example, a #10 bare copper ground through this lug and then into the EMT is it ok to have the bare copper touch the metal conduit? As I mentioned on a previous post it doesn't seem like a good idea from a galvanic perspective but through experience I haven't found any problems with it. Does any one have any reference to code material specifically allowing or not allowing this?

-August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

August,

Home Depot now sells bonding bushings for EMT down to ?", which should solve the availability issue. I was very surprised to see them last trip to the HD money pit.

Bill.
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August Goers
2009-10-10 16:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Bill and all -

Good old home depot. Are these bushings you speak of similar to the one pictured here?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000UEDU6M/ref=asc_df_B000UEDU6M915738?ie=UTF8&condition=new&tag=dealtmp386263-20&creative=380345&creativeASIN=B000UEDU6M&linkCode=asm

If so, I'm wondering if these are rated for outdoor use. I found one link that seems to mention that they are indeed rated for indoor and outdoor use but that would surprise me since the lay in lug is made of aluminum and I don't think the screws are stainless. I thought only tin coated copper lugs with stainless hardware are good for outdoors.

My other question is if we run, for example, a #10 bare copper ground through this lug and then into the EMT is it ok to have the bare copper touch the metal conduit? As I mentioned on a previous post it doesn't seem like a good idea from a galvanic perspective but through experience I haven't found any problems with it. Does any one have any reference to code material specifically allowing or not allowing this?

-August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

August,

Home Depot now sells bonding bushings for EMT down to ?", which should solve the availability issue. I was very surprised to see them last trip to the HD money pit.

Bill.
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Mark Frye
2009-10-09 22:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Hey Folks,

I don't want to dicourage anyone from doing good work that meets or exceeds
Code requirements. But I am a little quizzical about the how we all seem to
be ignoring what the Code actual says about this.

"250.97 Bonding for Over 250V Volts....

Exception: Where oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not
encountered....the following methods shall be permitted:...(3) Fittings with
shoulders that seat firmly against the box or cabinet, such as electrical
metallic tubing connectors..."

This tells me that if I run PV source conductors in EMT from one metal box
to another, I don't nessecarily need to bond the EMT as if it were part of a
service.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:



Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:




August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller





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Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 23:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Mark,



Although this exception is allowed, I think it is bad practice in the field.
We will probably see the NEC revoke this exception within the next few
cycles, and it may be revoked for PV systems much sooner. Relying on box
connections to carry the low fault currents inherent in PV systems is a
really bad idea. The NEC is a minimum standard.



Bill.





From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 3:42 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hey Folks,



I don't want to dicourage anyone from doing good work that meets or exceeds
Code requirements. But I am a little quizzical about the how we all seem to
be ignoring what the Code actual says about this.



"250.97 Bonding for Over 250V Volts....



Exception: Where oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not
encountered....the following methods shall be permitted:...(3) Fittings with
shoulders that seat firmly against the box or cabinet, such as electrical
metallic tubing connectors..."



This tells me that if I run PV source conductors in EMT from one metal box
to another, I don't nessecarily need to bond the EMT as if it were part of a
service.


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com





_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:



August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller




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Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 23:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Mark,



Although this exception is allowed, I think it is bad practice in the field.
We will probably see the NEC revoke this exception within the next few
cycles, and it may be revoked for PV systems much sooner. Relying on box
connections to carry the low fault currents inherent in PV systems is a
really bad idea. The NEC is a minimum standard.



Bill.





From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 3:42 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Hey Folks,



I don't want to dicourage anyone from doing good work that meets or exceeds
Code requirements. But I am a little quizzical about the how we all seem to
be ignoring what the Code actual says about this.



"250.97 Bonding for Over 250V Volts....



Exception: Where oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not
encountered....the following methods shall be permitted:...(3) Fittings with
shoulders that seat firmly against the box or cabinet, such as electrical
metallic tubing connectors..."



This tells me that if I run PV source conductors in EMT from one metal box
to another, I don't nessecarily need to bond the EMT as if it were part of a
service.


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com





_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:



August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller




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William Miller
2009-10-09 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
August:

As discussed, PVC is sometimes the best solution in a corrosive
environment. I would never recommend supporting PVC as depicted in the
photos. Shooting a screw through comp roofing is questionable at
best. Better methods of installing PVC are available, including better
straps and painting for UV protection.

I might add that although I would not tolerate brown PVC, UV browning does
not render the conduit unusable. The browning is only a few microns
thick. This is why the conduit says "UV resistant".

For hangers, I suggest a better anchoring system. We use aluminum strut
with stainless fasteners and hangers. From our previous life as a tower
rigging firm we have brought over stainless telecommunications
hardware:
http://awapps.commscope.com/catalog/andrew/product_details.aspx?id=13158
This is available in various sizes

William Miller



At 11:26 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>Content-Language: en-US
>Content-Type: multipart/related;
>
>boundary="_004_29A77A075EE0674CB6040A8B3B716734AAC371AAMBX04exg5exghos_";
> type="multipart/alternative"
>
>All ?
>
>PVC doesn?t hold up well in the Bay Area ? Here?s a photo of some ~4 year
>old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:
>
>83877e5.jpg
>
>
>You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
>Thank goodness we didn?t install this. PCV seems like a good option for
>shaded areas.
>
>As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the
>conduit to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find
>outdoor rated bonding bushings ? that?s why we?ve just been installing
>cast metal boxes with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).
>
>As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
>must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that?s why
>commercial low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems
>with built in wire raceways.
>
>-August
>
>
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Hans Frederickson
2009-10-09 21:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Thanks August... these images of PVC strapped to the roof, with a joint
totally failing after only 4 years, are a great reminder to follow the code
(some of this is new for 2008):

NEC 352.20 (fasten PVC such that movement from thermal effects is permitted)
NEC 352.44 (use expansion fittings to compensate for thermal
expansion/contraction)
NEC Table 310.15/B/2/c (ambient temp adjustment for conduits exposed to sun
/ rooftops)

These are _minimum_ requirements. We're installing these systems to last 40+
years. I beg to differ that PVC is easer/cheaper to install on a rooftop
when compared to EMT, if we're looking at a long-term installation. Between
summer highs and winter lows, that PVC is going to be moving all over the
place, and the only thing holding it together is glue and straps. It takes a
lot of patience and know-how to install PVC correctly in that kind of
environment, using expansion couplings with straps that allow movement in
the right places and hold the conduit tight where you don't want it to move
(e.g. where it enters a box). Here again is the link to the Carlon guide to
expansion fittings. Definitely read this if you're installing PVC conduit
where it will see large temperature swings:

http://www.carlon.com/Installation_Training/IT-ISEXPJT.pdf

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of standing behind a rooftop PVC
installation for anything close to the lifespan of a PV system. Given the
overall cost of a PV system, I think it's incredibly short sighted to save a
few bucks this way on the initial installation, as evidenced by August's
photos of the Marin County system.

If you have to run around the roof with EMT, you can protect it from rust
with a coat of paint.

Regards,
-Hans

________________________________

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com
Bill Brooks
2009-10-09 21:55:20 UTC
Permalink
August,



Home Depot now sells bonding bushings for EMT down to ??, which should solve
the availability issue. I was very surprised to see them last trip to the HD
money pit.



Bill.

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Mark Frye
2009-10-09 22:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Hey Folks,

I don't want to dicourage anyone from doing good work that meets or exceeds
Code requirements. But I am a little quizzical about the how we all seem to
be ignoring what the Code actual says about this.

"250.97 Bonding for Over 250V Volts....

Exception: Where oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not
encountered....the following methods shall be permitted:...(3) Fittings with
shoulders that seat firmly against the box or cabinet, such as electrical
metallic tubing connectors..."

This tells me that if I run PV source conductors in EMT from one metal box
to another, I don't nessecarily need to bond the EMT as if it were part of a
service.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
<http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com


_____

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



All -



PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year
old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:



PVC (Small).jpg



You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down.
Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for
shaded areas.



As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit
to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated
bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes
with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).



As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there
must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial
low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in
wire raceways.



-August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

august at luminalt.com



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays



Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:



Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:




August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller





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August Goers
2009-10-09 19:56:52 UTC
Permalink
All -

PVC doesn't hold up well in the Bay Area - Here's a photo of some ~4 year old PVC browned PVC from Marin County:

[cid:image002.jpg at 01CA48DF.F8EAE150]

You can see that the straps melted resulting in the conduit sliding down. Thank goodness we didn't install this. PCV seems like a good option for shaded areas.

As Bill pointed out, if we use EMT we need to bond both ends of the conduit to comply with NEC 250.97. My issue is that it is hard to find outdoor rated bonding bushings - that's why we've just been installing cast metal boxes with threaded connections (complies with NEC 250.92(B)(2)).

As William point out, EMT is robust and reliable. I still think that there must be more efficient way to go between arrays. Maybe that's why commercial low profile racking systems are often fully integrated systems with built in wire raceways.

-August


August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
august at luminalt.com

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:

Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:


August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller



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William Miller
2009-10-09 19:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Ray:

Good question. We do use PVC in coastal zones to avoid corrosion. We try
to keep it in the shade, paint it where exposed to UV and support it in
close intervals.

William


At 10:57 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
>outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use product X???
>
>R. Walters
><mailto:ray at solarray.com>ray at solarray.com
>Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
>On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:
>
>>August:
>>
>>I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage,
>>high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
>>quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.
>>
>>William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>>
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R Ray Walters
2009-10-09 17:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Except for coastal installations.... where EMT is NOT recommended
outdoors, PVC browns out and warps, and we should therefore use
product X???

R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:38 AM, William Miller wrote:

> August:
>
> I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high
> voltage, high amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time
> consuming, but high quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be
> thus.
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 11:07 AM 10/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Wrenches,
>>
>> I?m looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between
>> subarrays on rooftops. Let?s say we have a flat roof commercial
>> system with dozens of separate rows of modules. How would you folks
>> run the USE-2 wiring between these arrays? We?ve been using J-boxes
>> and EMT which is robust but time consuming. I?ve also used strut
>> with a cap strip on the top which effectively makes a wire raceway
>> but it is difficult to properly ground both ends of the raceway and
>> is also time consuming.
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August
>>
>
> Please note new e-mail address and domain:
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
> email: william at millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>

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Jeff Oldham
2009-10-09 19:03:12 UTC
Permalink
This link to galvanic compatibility is puzzling to me, it indicates that you should not connect copper wire to a gold plated terminal, or tin/lead solder on copper or connect a copper wire to a AL lug. However, all of these combo's are commonly done and most AL lugs are listed and rated for CU. The charts I've relied on list all of the above as cathode/Noble metals with none being an anode.

What gives?

-jeff o

>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions

____________________________________________________________
Become A Leader
Advance your career with a graduate business degree. Free info!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=m62Hfv1lP3h_NBZddbgYoAAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAQAAAAFAAAAAKKz9z4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARmMQAAAAA=
Nick Vida
2009-10-14 22:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Max,

I'm with Bill Brooks, among others on this one.
You are risking more than you might want to realize by bonding with mini (hanger) straps. Without an excelent path to ground through you equipment ground touching all frames on your array, you are risking static charge that can attract lightning. Also, your negative conductor is bonded to ground in your inverter, and if that is a better path to ground than your mini straps, then the lightning current might want to pursue that path and totally fry your system. You can find an interesting report by arco on a lightning study shared here on the list by mr. joel davidson of los angeles.
my choice is to run emt with connectors and ground bushings and run ground wire through the emt. I personally like to put only a connector and a plastic bushing on the other side because that stick is bonded, but that is maybe arguing against an article 250 code reference. I dont worry about running bare copper through the emt unless it is 6 awg or greater, and i would need to grab the NEC, but i think that is the cutoff (however i have never considered galvanic incompatibility before this thread).
it is great that you are seeing eye to eye with your AHJ, but i would rethink that one.

nick vida



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Kirpal Khalsa
2009-10-08 01:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o
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Walt Ratterman
2009-10-08 01:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Hello Kirpal,



Walt Ratterman here. I can respond to at least the first part.



In Burundi, we used three 5 KW Sunny Island 5048's in a three phase
configuration.



For all of the DC and AC breakers, wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback
Flexware equipment.



We put the DC on the bottom and the AC on the top. Due to the width of the
SI's, we used 2 - FW1000 systems to do this. (And I am glad - we actually
needed all of the wiring space. I think it would work really well for your
system.



Of course, there may be some other good choices that I would be anxious to
learn about as well.



You can see some good photos of this installation at our photo gallery -
linked form our Home Page at www.sunepi.org. Click on the cover for the
photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village Health Works / SELF project.



Feel free to holler if you need any specifics on how we did anything here.



OH - on your other question.I have no experience on large sealed banks, but
Rolls now has AGM's that start at T-105 size, include the 8G8D sizes, and
then go all the way up to 2V 3300 Ah.



Thanks!!



Walt



From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries



Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system
installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
systems.......and like the available supporting DC load centers with main
breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback Flexware DC
500's? or 1000's?
This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and therefore will
need four main breakers...... We primarily need a breaker box to locate our
main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences
would be appreciated......

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the
GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby
grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not
negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of
service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any
recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any
recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i
should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah
battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o

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Darryl Thayer
2009-10-08 01:33:35 UTC
Permalink
good luck, be careful not to parallel the sealed batteries, the steeper temp/voltage curve increases the possibility of thermal runaway. C&D makes a good sealed battery, check with battery services group, or C&D also Trojan makes smaller sealed batteries. I like Outback because of the battery monitoring/control capability of the FNDC.
Darryl

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 8:14 PM
> Hi Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny
> Island/Sunny Boy AC Coupled system installation.....We have
> mostly done Outback and Xantrex battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load
> centers with main breakers and other DC load and charging
> breakers......
>
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback
> Flexware DC 500's? or 1000's?
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and
> therefore will need four main breakers......? We primarily
> need a breaker box to locate our main DC breakers coming
> from the battery bank.......Any advice, experiences would be
> appreciated......
>
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience
> or advice on the GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the
> East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby grid connected back up
> battery bank....They both seem like they are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep
> discharges not negatively affecting the health of the
> batteries.....This is the type of service we expect the
> batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations of
> one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems
> convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece
> free......any recommendations on a good supplier on the west
> coast?? Any other brands i should be looking at in the
> sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
>
> 100 thanks !
> --
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
Darryl Thayer
2009-10-08 02:12:52 UTC
Permalink
two issues, if a breaker is mounted vertical the on position is NEC supposed to be up.
But the bigger issue is DC breakers have arc chutes, these rely on the arc gases rising and breaking over the arc chutes. (some of them have magnets to force the arc over the chutes.) The interrupting capacity of the breaker is severely compromised if the breaker is mounted on its side or upside down. (this I state based on theory and observation)
Darryl

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Walt Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com> wrote:

> From: Walt Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers, Sealed Batteries
> To: "'Mick Abraham'" <mick at abrahamsolar.com>, "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 8:50 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Mick,
>
> ?
>
> The way I understand it, the DC
> switch on the SI is really an on
> off switch and not a circuit breaker.? SMA recommends
> that the system has other
> overcurrent protection.? The main value of the DC
> switch that I could see is
> that it provides an easier re-set point.? (There are
> some power saving
> conditions that require re-setting rather than
> auto-re-start.)
>
> ?
>
> And?.? Since Outback
> has in their catalog using the Flexware mounted
> in this configuration, I would say the breakers are fine to
> be mounted in this fashion.?
> Worth checking though, of course.? I do know that you
> are not supposed to mount
> the DC breakers upside down (such as on the bottom of the
> flexware, where you
> would have to reach under the can to operate the
> breaker?..)
>
> ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> ?
>
> Walt
>
> SEPI
>
> ?
>
> ?
>
> ?
>
>
>
> From: Mick Abraham
> [mailto:mick at abrahamsolar.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:41 PM
>
> To: wratterman at sunenergypower.com; RE-wrenches
>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load
> Centers, Sealed
> Batteries
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Hi, two
> questions:
>
>
>
> (1) Doesn't each Sunny Island unit already include a DC
> disconnect breaker for
> the connection to battery?
>
>
>
> (2) Aren't those big DC breakers in the Outback boxes
> restricted for
> "vertical installation only"?
>
>
>
> I've got my own 3 phase Sunny Island thing coming up
> (maybe) so I look forward
> to these answers.
>
>
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
>
>
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Walt
> Ratterman <wratterman at sunenergypower.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello
> Kirpal,
>
> ?
>
> Walt Ratterman
> here.? I can respond
> to at least the first part.
>
> ?
>
> In Burundi, we
> used three 5 KW Sunny
> Island 5048?s in a three phase configuration.?
>
>
> ?
>
> For all of the DC
> and AC breakers,
> wireways, etc., etc., we used the Outback Flexware
> equipment.
>
> ?
>
> We put the DC on
> the bottom and the AC
> on the top.? Due to the width of the SI?s, we
> used 2 ? FW1000 systems to
> do this.? (And I am glad ? we actually needed
> all of the wiring
> space.? I think it would work really well for your
> system.
>
> ?
>
> Of course, there
> may be some other good
> choices that I would be anxious to learn about as
> well.
>
> ?
>
> You can see some
> good photos of this
> installation at our photo gallery ? linked form our
> Home Page at www.sunepi.org.? Click
> on
> the cover for the photos for the Burundi / Kigutu / Village
> Health Works / SELF
> project.
>
> ?
>
> Feel free to
> holler if you need any
> specifics on how we did anything here.
>
> ?
>
> OH ? on your
> other question?I have no
> experience on large sealed banks, but Rolls now has
> AGM?s that start at T-105
> size, include the 8G8D sizes, and then go all the way up to
> 2V 3300 Ah.
>
> ?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> ?
>
> Walt
>
> ?
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Kirpal
> Khalsa
>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:15 PM
>
> To: RE-wrenches
>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island DC Load Centers,
> Sealed Batteries
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Hi
> Folks......we have an upcoming Sunny Island/Sunny Boy AC
> Coupled system
> installation.....We have mostly done Outback and Xantrex
> battery based
> systems.......and like the available supporting DC load
> centers with main
> breakers and other DC load and charging breakers......
>
> What are folks using for the Sunny Island products? Outback
> Flexware DC 500's?
> or 1000's?
>
> This particular system will consist of 4 Sunny Islands and
> therefore will need
> four main breakers......? We primarily need a breaker
> box to locate our
> main DC breakers coming from the battery bank.......Any
> advice, experiences
> would be appreciated......
>
>
>
> Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience
> or advice on the GNB
> Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII
> as a standby grid
> connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they
> are good for
> primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep
> discharges not negatively
> affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type
> of service we expect
> the batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations
> of one brand over
> the other.....The vertical stacking seems convenient as far
> as space is
> concerned.....maintenece free......any recommendations on a
> good supplier on
> the west coast?? Any other brands i should be looking
> at in the sealed
> battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
>
> 100 thanks !
>
> --
>
> Sunny Regards,
>
> Kirpal Khalsa
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>
> Renewable Energy Systems
>
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>
> 541-218-0201 m
>
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> Options & settings:
>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
>
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>
>
> Check out participant bios:
>
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
toddcory
2009-10-08 04:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Why do you limit your selection to sealed batteries? I highly recommend Surrettes FC-420. These are flooded, lead calcium batteries in a L-16 case. In the last 12 months my home system's set has not used any noticable amount of electrolyte. Rated for 15 years, and should easily last 20+, IMO this is the best battery out there for grid tied with battery backup systems.

Todd

On Wednesday, October 7, 2009 6:14pm, "Kirpal Khalsa" <solarworks at gmail.com> said:

Also on that note.....anyone wish to share any experience or advice on the GNB Absolyte GX series batteries or the East Penn Deka UnigyII as a standby grid connected back up battery bank....They both seem like they are good for primarily hanging out in float with occasional deep discharges not negatively affecting the health of the batteries.....This is the type of service we expect the batteries will be in primarily......Any recommendations of one brand over the other.....The vertical stacking seems convenient as far as space is concerned.....maintenece free......any recommendations on a good supplier on the west coast? Any other brands i should be looking at in the sealed battery category for a fairly large Ah battery bank?
100 thanks !
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
[http://www.oregonsolarworks.com] www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o
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William Miller
2009-10-09 17:38:05 UTC
Permalink
August:

I suggest the use of EMT with proper fittings to protect high voltage, high
amperage DC Wiring on rooftops. Sure it is time consuming, but high
quality, reliable craftsmanship will always be thus.

William Miller







At 11:07 AM 10/8/2009, you wrote:

>Hi Wrenches,
>
>I'm looking for fresh ideas on how to run USE-2 wires between subarrays on
>rooftops. Let's say we have a flat roof commercial system with dozens of
>separate rows of modules. How would you folks run the USE-2 wiring between
>these arrays? We've been using J-boxes and EMT which is robust but time
>consuming. I've also used strut with a cap strip on the top which
>effectively makes a wire raceway but it is difficult to properly ground
>both ends of the raceway and is also time consuming.
>
>Looking forward to hearing your ideas. Best, August
>

Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: william at millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Jeff Oldham
2009-10-09 19:03:12 UTC
Permalink
This link to galvanic compatibility is puzzling to me, it indicates that you should not connect copper wire to a gold plated terminal, or tin/lead solder on copper or connect a copper wire to a AL lug. However, all of these combo's are commonly done and most AL lugs are listed and rated for CU. The charts I've relied on list all of the above as cathode/Noble metals with none being an anode.

What gives?

-jeff o

>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions

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Nick Vida
2009-10-14 22:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Max,

I'm with Bill Brooks, among others on this one.
You are risking more than you might want to realize by bonding with mini (hanger) straps. Without an excelent path to ground through you equipment ground touching all frames on your array, you are risking static charge that can attract lightning. Also, your negative conductor is bonded to ground in your inverter, and if that is a better path to ground than your mini straps, then the lightning current might want to pursue that path and totally fry your system. You can find an interesting report by arco on a lightning study shared here on the list by mr. joel davidson of los angeles.
my choice is to run emt with connectors and ground bushings and run ground wire through the emt. I personally like to put only a connector and a plastic bushing on the other side because that stick is bonded, but that is maybe arguing against an article 250 code reference. I dont worry about running bare copper through the emt unless it is 6 awg or greater, and i would need to grab the NEC, but i think that is the cutoff (however i have never considered galvanic incompatibility before this thread).
it is great that you are seeing eye to eye with your AHJ, but i would rethink that one.

nick vida



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