Discussion:
LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
(too old to reply)
Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 02:01:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson


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Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-12-18 02:47:19 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Joel,

Maybe all that really hi quality xmas light cabling has something to
do with it?

jay

peltz power
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not
have long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs
replacing incandescent Christmas lights at http://www.eetimes.com/
rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-12-18 14:18:32 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I have used LED holiday lights since they first came out about 5-6 years
ago. The brightness and longevity has increased over the years, but from
the very onset to today, the strings I bought made by "forever bright"
have had lifetime warranties. Early on I did have a couple of strings
fail and they were always replaced for free, but I did pay the shipping
charges to get them there.

The early units from this company had replaceable LEDs but because of
the mentioned corrosion issues they stopped doing that and now these are
sealed in the sockets. My oldest string made like this has been outside
for 3 years now (year round), turned on via a timer for about 5 hours a
night, and is still working fine... although the lights are not as
bright as the new strings and there are a few dead bulbs... not enough
to send them in for free replacement though.

I bought three strings (made by GE) this holiday season and they are the
replaceable bulb kind so we will see how long they last. While the
colors are amazingly bright and the power consumption is low it was
troubling to read about the embedded energy in each string being 10X
traditional incandescent lamps! EROEI is easy to forget to include in
energy savings.

Many people think LEDs are so great, but for general lighting we still
prefer CF's which by the way are also made in colors now. We have
several red, yellow, green, blue, orange and black-lights ones. These
are fun for decorations too.

For now it seems the best application for LEDs is in flashlights. My
favorite is the Surefire U2. Hard to beat a 5 watt LED with variable (2
to 100 lumen) output.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24187/sesent/00

Can you tell I have a light fetish?

Todd
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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</x-flowed>
Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 16:37:28 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. I thought there was more to
the story than "bad and ugly LEDs." My experience has been all good. We keep
LED flashlights near the kitchen, office and garage doors for emergency
lighting, but they are used instead for light when we need to do detail
work.

Recently, I was given LED Christmas lights that change colors. They were so
nice that I bought some as gifts. See
http://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-Solar-Powered-Christmas-Lighting/dp/B000ZKFX98
and
http://www.amazon.com/Strathwood-Snowflake-Solar-Lights-6-Pack/dp/B000U60OMS

Best wishes for a wonderful new year!
Joel Davidson
PS- Thank you Michael for managing RE-wrenches which is the next best thing
to talking face-to-face with real hands-on RE people.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
I have used LED holiday lights since they first came out about 5-6 years
ago. The brightness and longevity has increased over the years, but from
the very onset to today, the strings I bought made by "forever bright"
have had lifetime warranties. Early on I did have a couple of strings fail
and they were always replaced for free, but I did pay the shipping charges
to get them there.
The early units from this company had replaceable LEDs but because of the
mentioned corrosion issues they stopped doing that and now these are
sealed in the sockets. My oldest string made like this has been outside
for 3 years now (year round), turned on via a timer for about 5 hours a
night, and is still working fine... although the lights are not as bright
as the new strings and there are a few dead bulbs... not enough to send
them in for free replacement though.
I bought three strings (made by GE) this holiday season and they are the
replaceable bulb kind so we will see how long they last. While the colors
are amazingly bright and the power consumption is low it was troubling to
read about the embedded energy in each string being 10X traditional
incandescent lamps! EROEI is easy to forget to include in energy savings.
Many people think LEDs are so great, but for general lighting we still
prefer CF's which by the way are also made in colors now. We have several
red, yellow, green, blue, orange and black-lights ones. These are fun for
decorations too.
For now it seems the best application for LEDs is in flashlights. My
favorite is the Surefire U2. Hard to beat a 5 watt LED with variable (2 to
100 lumen) output.
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24187/sesent/00
Can you tell I have a light fetish?
Todd
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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</x-flowed>
Matt Tritt
2007-12-18 18:21:55 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Warren,

If you're only after aeration, consider a DC air compressor. I did R&D
on a few systems a couple of years ago that were sized for about a 10
acre pond, 15' deep at the lowest point. There is a way to move lots of
water and induce oxygen at the same time with no moving parts submerged.
You can contact me directly about this if you want, or go through the RE
Marketing account.

Matt T
We get calls from time to time about solar powered pumps for pond
aeration.
To my knowledge, there simply is not much out there that is really
suitable, since ponds by their nature usually have mud, silt, weeds,
dead frogs, etc etc which is not good for most DC pumps.
Has anyone ever seen a DC pump that is really suitable for such
applications?
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Bill Roush
2007-12-19 03:56:42 UTC
Permalink
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Carl Hansen
2007-12-20 17:16:56 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I'm not familiar with a DC pump for that purpose specifically but my sister
has a wind powered air pump that does a good job at keeping a 10 foot
diameter hole open in the ice in the shallow part of her pond.

Carl
Hansen&Sun


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</x-flowed>
Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 16:37:28 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. I thought there was more to
the story than "bad and ugly LEDs." My experience has been all good. We keep
LED flashlights near the kitchen, office and garage doors for emergency
lighting, but they are used instead for light when we need to do detail
work.

Recently, I was given LED Christmas lights that change colors. They were so
nice that I bought some as gifts. See
http://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-Solar-Powered-Christmas-Lighting/dp/B000ZKFX98
and
http://www.amazon.com/Strathwood-Snowflake-Solar-Lights-6-Pack/dp/B000U60OMS

Best wishes for a wonderful new year!
Joel Davidson
PS- Thank you Michael for managing RE-wrenches which is the next best thing
to talking face-to-face with real hands-on RE people.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Post by Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
I have used LED holiday lights since they first came out about 5-6 years
ago. The brightness and longevity has increased over the years, but from
the very onset to today, the strings I bought made by "forever bright"
have had lifetime warranties. Early on I did have a couple of strings fail
and they were always replaced for free, but I did pay the shipping charges
to get them there.
The early units from this company had replaceable LEDs but because of the
mentioned corrosion issues they stopped doing that and now these are
sealed in the sockets. My oldest string made like this has been outside
for 3 years now (year round), turned on via a timer for about 5 hours a
night, and is still working fine... although the lights are not as bright
as the new strings and there are a few dead bulbs... not enough to send
them in for free replacement though.
I bought three strings (made by GE) this holiday season and they are the
replaceable bulb kind so we will see how long they last. While the colors
are amazingly bright and the power consumption is low it was troubling to
read about the embedded energy in each string being 10X traditional
incandescent lamps! EROEI is easy to forget to include in energy savings.
Many people think LEDs are so great, but for general lighting we still
prefer CF's which by the way are also made in colors now. We have several
red, yellow, green, blue, orange and black-lights ones. These are fun for
decorations too.
For now it seems the best application for LEDs is in flashlights. My
favorite is the Surefire U2. Hard to beat a 5 watt LED with variable (2 to
100 lumen) output.
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24187/sesent/00
Can you tell I have a light fetish?
Todd
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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</x-flowed>
Matt Tritt
2007-12-18 18:21:55 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Warren,

If you're only after aeration, consider a DC air compressor. I did R&D
on a few systems a couple of years ago that were sized for about a 10
acre pond, 15' deep at the lowest point. There is a way to move lots of
water and induce oxygen at the same time with no moving parts submerged.
You can contact me directly about this if you want, or go through the RE
Marketing account.

Matt T
We get calls from time to time about solar powered pumps for pond
aeration.
To my knowledge, there simply is not much out there that is really
suitable, since ponds by their nature usually have mud, silt, weeds,
dead frogs, etc etc which is not good for most DC pumps.
Has anyone ever seen a DC pump that is really suitable for such
applications?
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Bill Roush
2007-12-19 03:56:42 UTC
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Carl Hansen
2007-12-20 17:16:56 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I'm not familiar with a DC pump for that purpose specifically but my sister
has a wind powered air pump that does a good job at keeping a 10 foot
diameter hole open in the ice in the shallow part of her pond.

Carl
Hansen&Sun


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Don Loweburg
2007-12-18 16:44:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 12/17/2007 6:08:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net writes:

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at





Article impugns the cheapo led strings on the consumer market. Not good for
led tech generally but in my mind does not address the many other led apps
developing. The article sounds like a smear piece masquerading as a tech
review.

Don L



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Travis Creswell
2007-12-18 17:12:35 UTC
Permalink
We are just now getting our hands on commercial specification grade LED
fixtures. The national rep for what appears to be a top of line product
recently visited us and we were impressed much more so then I thought we
would be. I'm definitely from the Show-Me state.

One particularly impressive product was the 12 watt LED fixture (assembly
might be a better description) that is a replacement for 65 watt PAR type
lamps. The Color (2700 Kelvin) and CRI (92) was absolutely
indistinguishable from incandescent. I was totally surprised. Retails for
~$130 they told me. Dimmable too!

www.LLfinc.com is the manufacturer's website. Apparently it's very
important to properly heat sink LED's. They do rate them at 50k hrs as
that's when light output begins to quickly decline. I'm not totally clear
about the details of that as we didn't get to finish that discussion. The
rep was heading off to catch a flight to DC to install these lights in Al
Gore's office.

*CRI = Color rendering index. Most compact fluorescents are in the mid 70's
and the better fluorescent tubes are in the mid 80's. Incandescent/Sunlight
is the benchmark for CRI @ 100.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Loweburg [mailto:i2p at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:45 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]




In a message dated 12/17/2007 6:08:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net writes:

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at





Article impugns the cheapo led strings on the consumer market. Not good
for
led tech generally but in my mind does not address the many other led apps
developing. The article sounds like a smear piece masquerading as a tech
review.

Don L



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Travis Creswell
2007-12-18 17:12:35 UTC
Permalink
We are just now getting our hands on commercial specification grade LED
fixtures. The national rep for what appears to be a top of line product
recently visited us and we were impressed much more so then I thought we
would be. I'm definitely from the Show-Me state.

One particularly impressive product was the 12 watt LED fixture (assembly
might be a better description) that is a replacement for 65 watt PAR type
lamps. The Color (2700 Kelvin) and CRI (92) was absolutely
indistinguishable from incandescent. I was totally surprised. Retails for
~$130 they told me. Dimmable too!

www.LLfinc.com is the manufacturer's website. Apparently it's very
important to properly heat sink LED's. They do rate them at 50k hrs as
that's when light output begins to quickly decline. I'm not totally clear
about the details of that as we didn't get to finish that discussion. The
rep was heading off to catch a flight to DC to install these lights in Al
Gore's office.

*CRI = Color rendering index. Most compact fluorescents are in the mid 70's
and the better fluorescent tubes are in the mid 80's. Incandescent/Sunlight
is the benchmark for CRI @ 100.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Loweburg [mailto:i2p at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:45 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]




In a message dated 12/17/2007 6:08:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net writes:

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at





Article impugns the cheapo led strings on the consumer market. Not good
for
led tech generally but in my mind does not address the many other led apps
developing. The article sounds like a smear piece masquerading as a tech
review.

Don L



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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No virus found in this incoming message.
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2:13 PM


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Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 18:31:58 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. I thought there was more to
the story than "bad and ugly LEDs." My experience has been all good. We keep
LED flashlights near the kitchen, office and garage doors for emergency
lighting, but they are used mostly when we need bright light to do detail
work.

Recently, I was given LED Christmas lights that change colors. They were so
nice that I bought some to give to as gifts. See
http://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-Solar-Powered-Christmas-Lighting/dp/B000ZKFX98
and
http://www.amazon.com/Strathwood-Snowflake-Solar-Lights-6-Pack/dp/B000U60OMS

Best wishes for a wonderful new year!

Joel Davidson

PS- Thank you Michael for managing RE-wrenches which is the next best thing
to talking face-to-face with real hands-on RE people.


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</x-flowed>
Jeff Oldham
2007-12-18 18:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Matt is right on the mark here, it is nuts to aerate heavy water by tossing it in the air rather then tossing air into water for a fraction of the energy and complexity.

-jeff
From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions
_____________________________________________________________
Save on Vocational Schools. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiglCqynnPnmVtdZgBgTrgJ9lmyuKlIppwQ3ikX2da8yRPAwG/

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Jeff Oldham
2007-12-18 18:40:07 UTC
Permalink
LED's are wonderful semiconductors just as PV modules are and they share the same weak link - installation and wiring practices. The system will be only as good as the integration.
Happy Holidays to all and a special thanks to our awesome moderator Michael!
-jeff
From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions
_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on java training and make up to $150K/ year.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieaAAqnIGPDJUfhffv7Zcv4kUUK80fkoj6at0zls89P03BMq/

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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-12-18 19:37:20 UTC
Permalink
I too have had mixed results with LED christmas lights over the last
several years - some brands are good - some are lousy. Hard to tell
when you look at them. Between my shop and house I have about 50
strings running up to 24 hours a day (on 100% renewables) - gotta love
having hydro...

This years addition is the "GE" labeled ones - which aren't made by GE
or warranted by them either according to the box - I think they just
sold the use of their logo to some marketing company...

There also has been some very nice LED rope lights which I am really
impressed with - brighter and more durable (hopefully) especially since
they have real 1/4 watt resistors used on them.


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-12-18 20:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Forgot to say that I think the article is really poor - the author
clearly wanted it to have a certain slant and found people to support
his conclusion.

There was a comment which said LEDs have 10 times the energy used to
make them - which is probably true of the LED itself, compared to a
small light bulb - but they also last 10 times longer (if well made) and
this energy used to make the LED is probably a very small amount of
energy actually. I also can't imagine this is true for the entire LED
christmas light string though... There is probably much more energy used
in making the copper wires for either version than the LEDs and bulbs.

Most of the problems I have seen have been mechanical and with the cheap
resistors that they use to limit the current.

Jeff's comment about them being similar to solar panels is true to a
point - but the UL standard for "holiday decorations" is a joke -
imagine if they required these products to be built, tested and
installed to solar electric system requirements... the excuse is that
these decorations are for "temporary use" - although during the worst
weather conditions and are installed by untrained personnel.

Extensive testing of these LED strings in jump-rope applications has so
far been inconclusive - additional testing has been scheduled for next
July in central Oregon.

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Peter Parrish
2007-12-19 02:37:13 UTC
Permalink
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed
_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson


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Bill Loesch
2007-12-19 03:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Well said, Doc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 8:37 PM
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Post by Peter Parrish
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed
Post by Peter Parrish
_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
12/18/2007 9:40 PM
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Bill Loesch
2007-12-19 03:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Well said, Doc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 8:37 PM
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Post by Peter Parrish
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed
Post by Peter Parrish
_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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John Raynes
2007-12-19 04:05:10 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT

At 06:37 PM 12/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:

LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com


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</x-flowed>
Drake Chamberlin
2007-12-20 00:34:48 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I've used them since they became available. I changed all my other
flashlights over to LED as well. My old 2 D cell Mag Light is like a
torch. An old head lamp that takes 3 AA batteries stays bright,
seemingly forever. The 2 AA Mini Mag that I carry in my tool belt
lights up an entire room. I can put a 3 AAA head lamp in my pocket
or pouch, and barely know it is there.

Drake
Post by John Raynes
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2
weeks they rose to the top of our list of essential
gear. Incredibly handy for working inside power rooms and power
panels, even in relatively good light conditions. Way better in
many cases than flashlights and troublelights consuming a lot more
power, often avoiding generator running. We don't go anywhere
without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
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</x-flowed>
Drake Chamberlin
2007-12-20 00:34:48 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I've used them since they became available. I changed all my other
flashlights over to LED as well. My old 2 D cell Mag Light is like a
torch. An old head lamp that takes 3 AA batteries stays bright,
seemingly forever. The 2 AA Mini Mag that I carry in my tool belt
lights up an entire room. I can put a 3 AAA head lamp in my pocket
or pouch, and barely know it is there.

Drake
Post by John Raynes
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2
weeks they rose to the top of our list of essential
gear. Incredibly handy for working inside power rooms and power
panels, even in relatively good light conditions. Way better in
many cases than flashlights and troublelights consuming a lot more
power, often avoiding generator running. We don't go anywhere
without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
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</x-flowed>
Sky Sims
2007-12-19 07:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.

Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962

-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]


How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT

At 06:37 PM 12/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:

LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application:
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com


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Ray Walters
2007-12-19 15:55:22 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>


We've used the LED hedlights (different brands) for as long as
they've been around. My favorite is the Energizer model for around
$12.00. I tried the expensive brands and I don't "see" (ha,ha) them
as being any better. The headlights work so good, that we never added
the extra lighting to our truck because we just didn't need it. THey
work great even in the day time for J boxes in not so well lit
corners, etc.
Forget about the models with big battery packs and cords, the 3 AAA
batteries on my Energizer last over 20 hours of "ON" time.

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-
wrenches/read
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wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Ezra Auerbach, DragonSun Consulting
2007-12-20 04:12:40 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Couldn't live without LED headlamps here. Just about everyone on the
island uses them for everything from getting to the morning boat to
the evening wood shed chores. They are truly a breakthrough in
personal lighting.

Ezra

p.s. good solstice to everyone and a special thanks to Michael W.
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
- - - -
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To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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wrenches/read
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wrenches/etiquette.php
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Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
- - - -
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To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

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Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
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EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
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</x-flowed>
Ray Walters
2007-12-19 15:55:22 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>


We've used the LED hedlights (different brands) for as long as
they've been around. My favorite is the Energizer model for around
$12.00. I tried the expensive brands and I don't "see" (ha,ha) them
as being any better. The headlights work so good, that we never added
the extra lighting to our truck because we just didn't need it. THey
work great even in the day time for J boxes in not so well lit
corners, etc.
Forget about the models with big battery packs and cords, the 3 AAA
batteries on my Energizer last over 20 hours of "ON" time.

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-
wrenches/read
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wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Ezra Auerbach, DragonSun Consulting
2007-12-20 04:12:40 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Couldn't live without LED headlamps here. Just about everyone on the
island uses them for everything from getting to the morning boat to
the evening wood shed chores. They are truly a breakthrough in
personal lighting.

Ezra

p.s. good solstice to everyone and a special thanks to Michael W.
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
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</x-flowed>
Chris Daum
2007-12-20 17:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks:

These folks offer DC powered pond aerators (among other things): Keeton
Industries out of CO, 970-493-4831; you can peruse their web site at
www.keetonaqua.com.

Have a terrific holiday season!

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 (0830 fax)




-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Hansen [mailto:Solarwks at cybermesa.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Pond Aeration [RE-wrenches]


I'm not familiar with a DC pump for that purpose specifically but my sister
has a wind powered air pump that does a good job at keeping a 10 foot
diameter hole open in the ice in the shallow part of her pond.

Carl
Hansen&Sun


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Peter Parrish
2007-12-20 20:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches



I don't know if anyone else has gotten this solicitation "through" CALSEIA
-- see below. See Sue Katley's explanation of how it appears to have the
imprimatur of CALSEIA. The typos and misspellings, and the general nature of
the solicitation should tip one off that it is a scam.



- Peter



Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President

California Solar Engineering, Inc.

820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065

Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26

peter.parrish at calsolareng.com



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hi Peter,

Happy holidays!

You're right - it did not come from CALSEIA....but....it did come through
CALSEIA. There is a place on the CALSEIA website where someone can generate
an email to a CALSEIA member. This individual apparently used that tool and
sent a number of companies this same message. You can delete it.

Sue

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> Parrish

To: info at calseia.org

Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 AM

Subject: RE: Order

I thought you folks would be interested in this inquiry. I assume that it
_did not_ come from CALSEIA! It is written in the tone of a scam (replete
with misspellings and typos).

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com

_____

From: John Barn [mailto:jbsunstore at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:21 AM
To: PETER.PARRISH at CALSOLARENG.COM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Order




The following is a referal from http://calseia.org

Please reply to: jbsunstore at yahoo.com


Name:

John Barn


Email:

jbsunstore at yahoo.com


Subject:

Order


Short Message:

JB SUNSTORE 1507 Wall Street Everett WA USA 98201 Tel:206 337 0942. Dear
Sir, ENQUIRY FOR 120WATTS/12V SOLAR PANEL We would like you to kindly supply
us the price for 8 pieces of your 120watts/12v solar panel lt will further
help if you do advice on availability and lead time of this product. Your
rapid response will be counted on as we are supplying our client this
product as soon as possible. Thanking you in advance for your prompt
response. Sincerely, John Barn Director.



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Joel Davidson
2007-12-20 22:00:24 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

www.zillow.com indicates the Everett WA address is a condo building.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: Another Scam [RE-wrenches]
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches
I don't know if anyone else has gotten this solicitation "through" CALSEIA
-- see below. See Sue Katley's explanation of how it appears to have the
imprimatur of CALSEIA. The typos and misspellings, and the general nature of
the solicitation should tip one off that it is a scam.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi Peter,
Happy holidays!
You're right - it did not come from CALSEIA....but....it did come through
CALSEIA. There is a place on the CALSEIA website where someone can generate
an email to a CALSEIA member. This individual apparently used that tool and
sent a number of companies this same message. You can delete it.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> Parrish
To: info at calseia.org
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: Order
I thought you folks would be interested in this inquiry. I assume that it
_did not_ come from CALSEIA! It is written in the tone of a scam (replete
with misspellings and typos).
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
_____
From: John Barn [mailto:jbsunstore at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:21 AM
To: PETER.PARRISH at CALSOLARENG.COM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Order
The following is a referal from http://calseia.org
Please reply to: jbsunstore at yahoo.com
John Barn
jbsunstore at yahoo.com
Order
JB SUNSTORE 1507 Wall Street Everett WA USA 98201 Tel:206 337 0942. Dear
Sir, ENQUIRY FOR 120WATTS/12V SOLAR PANEL We would like you to kindly supply
us the price for 8 pieces of your 120watts/12v solar panel lt will further
help if you do advice on availability and lead time of this product. Your
rapid response will be counted on as we are supplying our client this
product as soon as possible. Thanking you in advance for your prompt
response. Sincerely, John Barn Director.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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</x-flowed>
Joel Davidson
2007-12-20 22:00:24 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

www.zillow.com indicates the Everett WA address is a condo building.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: Another Scam [RE-wrenches]
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches
I don't know if anyone else has gotten this solicitation "through" CALSEIA
-- see below. See Sue Katley's explanation of how it appears to have the
imprimatur of CALSEIA. The typos and misspellings, and the general nature of
the solicitation should tip one off that it is a scam.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi Peter,
Happy holidays!
You're right - it did not come from CALSEIA....but....it did come through
CALSEIA. There is a place on the CALSEIA website where someone can generate
an email to a CALSEIA member. This individual apparently used that tool and
sent a number of companies this same message. You can delete it.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> Parrish
To: info at calseia.org
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: Order
I thought you folks would be interested in this inquiry. I assume that it
_did not_ come from CALSEIA! It is written in the tone of a scam (replete
with misspellings and typos).
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
_____
From: John Barn [mailto:jbsunstore at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:21 AM
To: PETER.PARRISH at CALSOLARENG.COM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Order
The following is a referal from http://calseia.org
Please reply to: jbsunstore at yahoo.com
John Barn
jbsunstore at yahoo.com
Order
JB SUNSTORE 1507 Wall Street Everett WA USA 98201 Tel:206 337 0942. Dear
Sir, ENQUIRY FOR 120WATTS/12V SOLAR PANEL We would like you to kindly supply
us the price for 8 pieces of your 120watts/12v solar panel lt will further
help if you do advice on availability and lead time of this product. Your
rapid response will be counted on as we are supplying our client this
product as soon as possible. Thanking you in advance for your prompt
response. Sincerely, John Barn Director.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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</x-flowed>
Nick Houser
2007-12-21 14:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Right on Ezra---having tried dozens of these LED headlamps in every
stage of development, my favorite so far is a new one from Princeton
Tec---4 VERY bright white LED "regulated", tiltable, 3 AAA's
good switch, batteries last a very long time. Lightweight,
even has a flashing mode, (useful in the boat sometimes. Nick in Powell
River.
Post by Ezra Auerbach, DragonSun Consulting
Couldn't live without LED headlamps here. Just about everyone on the
island uses them for everything from getting to the morning boat to
the evening wood shed chores. They are truly a breakthrough in
personal lighting.
Ezra
p.s. good solstice to everyone and a special thanks to Michael W.
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as
well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue,
violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be
strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and
perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our
lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
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Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 02:01:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson


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</x-flowed>
Jay Peltz, Peltz Power
2007-12-18 02:47:19 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hi Joel,

Maybe all that really hi quality xmas light cabling has something to
do with it?

jay

peltz power
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not
have long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs
replacing incandescent Christmas lights at http://www.eetimes.com/
rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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</x-flowed>
Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
2007-12-18 14:18:32 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

I have used LED holiday lights since they first came out about 5-6 years
ago. The brightness and longevity has increased over the years, but from
the very onset to today, the strings I bought made by "forever bright"
have had lifetime warranties. Early on I did have a couple of strings
fail and they were always replaced for free, but I did pay the shipping
charges to get them there.

The early units from this company had replaceable LEDs but because of
the mentioned corrosion issues they stopped doing that and now these are
sealed in the sockets. My oldest string made like this has been outside
for 3 years now (year round), turned on via a timer for about 5 hours a
night, and is still working fine... although the lights are not as
bright as the new strings and there are a few dead bulbs... not enough
to send them in for free replacement though.

I bought three strings (made by GE) this holiday season and they are the
replaceable bulb kind so we will see how long they last. While the
colors are amazingly bright and the power consumption is low it was
troubling to read about the embedded energy in each string being 10X
traditional incandescent lamps! EROEI is easy to forget to include in
energy savings.

Many people think LEDs are so great, but for general lighting we still
prefer CF's which by the way are also made in colors now. We have
several red, yellow, green, blue, orange and black-lights ones. These
are fun for decorations too.

For now it seems the best application for LEDs is in flashlights. My
favorite is the Surefire U2. Hard to beat a 5 watt LED with variable (2
to 100 lumen) output.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24187/sesent/00

Can you tell I have a light fetish?

Todd
Post by Joel Davidson
Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson
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</x-flowed>
Don Loweburg
2007-12-18 16:44:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 12/17/2007 6:08:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net writes:

Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at





Article impugns the cheapo led strings on the consumer market. Not good for
led tech generally but in my mind does not address the many other led apps
developing. The article sounds like a smear piece masquerading as a tech
review.

Don L



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Joel Davidson
2007-12-18 18:31:58 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. I thought there was more to
the story than "bad and ugly LEDs." My experience has been all good. We keep
LED flashlights near the kitchen, office and garage doors for emergency
lighting, but they are used mostly when we need bright light to do detail
work.

Recently, I was given LED Christmas lights that change colors. They were so
nice that I bought some to give to as gifts. See
http://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-Solar-Powered-Christmas-Lighting/dp/B000ZKFX98
and
http://www.amazon.com/Strathwood-Snowflake-Solar-Lights-6-Pack/dp/B000U60OMS

Best wishes for a wonderful new year!

Joel Davidson

PS- Thank you Michael for managing RE-wrenches which is the next best thing
to talking face-to-face with real hands-on RE people.


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</x-flowed>
Jeff Oldham
2007-12-18 18:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Matt is right on the mark here, it is nuts to aerate heavy water by tossing it in the air rather then tossing air into water for a fraction of the energy and complexity.

-jeff
From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions
_____________________________________________________________
Save on Vocational Schools. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiglCqynnPnmVtdZgBgTrgJ9lmyuKlIppwQ3ikX2da8yRPAwG/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Jeff Oldham
2007-12-18 18:40:07 UTC
Permalink
LED's are wonderful semiconductors just as PV modules are and they share the same weak link - installation and wiring practices. The system will be only as good as the integration.
Happy Holidays to all and a special thanks to our awesome moderator Michael!
-jeff
From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions
_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on java training and make up to $150K/ year.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieaAAqnIGPDJUfhffv7Zcv4kUUK80fkoj6at0zls89P03BMq/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-12-18 19:37:20 UTC
Permalink
I too have had mixed results with LED christmas lights over the last
several years - some brands are good - some are lousy. Hard to tell
when you look at them. Between my shop and house I have about 50
strings running up to 24 hours a day (on 100% renewables) - gotta love
having hydro...

This years addition is the "GE" labeled ones - which aren't made by GE
or warranted by them either according to the box - I think they just
sold the use of their logo to some marketing company...

There also has been some very nice LED rope lights which I am really
impressed with - brighter and more durable (hopefully) especially since
they have real 1/4 watt resistors used on them.


Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
2007-12-18 20:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Forgot to say that I think the article is really poor - the author
clearly wanted it to have a certain slant and found people to support
his conclusion.

There was a comment which said LEDs have 10 times the energy used to
make them - which is probably true of the LED itself, compared to a
small light bulb - but they also last 10 times longer (if well made) and
this energy used to make the LED is probably a very small amount of
energy actually. I also can't imagine this is true for the entire LED
christmas light string though... There is probably much more energy used
in making the copper wires for either version than the LEDs and bulbs.

Most of the problems I have seen have been mechanical and with the cheap
resistors that they use to limit the current.

Jeff's comment about them being similar to solar panels is true to a
point - but the UL standard for "holiday decorations" is a joke -
imagine if they required these products to be built, tested and
installed to solar electric system requirements... the excuse is that
these decorations are for "temporary use" - although during the worst
weather conditions and are installed by untrained personnel.

Extensive testing of these LED strings in jump-rope applications has so
far been inconclusive - additional testing has been scheduled for next
July in central Oregon.

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030


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Peter Parrish
2007-12-19 02:37:13 UTC
Permalink
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,
Any truth to report that LEDs rust from the inside out and do not have
long-life warranties? See EETimes commentary about LEDs replacing
incandescent Christmas lights at
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204702684&cid=RSSfeed
_eetimes_newsRSS
Joel Davidson


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John Raynes
2007-12-19 04:05:10 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT

At 06:37 PM 12/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:

LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application: your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com


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</x-flowed>
Sky Sims
2007-12-19 07:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.

Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962

-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]


How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.

John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT

At 06:37 PM 12/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:

LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.

First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.

Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known (watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.

Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue, violet
as
well as cool and warm white.

Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.

Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years

Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.

Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.

It will be fun to watch each illumination and indication application:
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.

It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our lives.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com


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Chris Daum
2007-12-20 17:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks:

These folks offer DC powered pond aerators (among other things): Keeton
Industries out of CO, 970-493-4831; you can peruse their web site at
www.keetonaqua.com.

Have a terrific holiday season!

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 (0830 fax)




-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Hansen [mailto:Solarwks at cybermesa.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Pond Aeration [RE-wrenches]


I'm not familiar with a DC pump for that purpose specifically but my sister
has a wind powered air pump that does a good job at keeping a 10 foot
diameter hole open in the ice in the shallow part of her pond.

Carl
Hansen&Sun


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Peter Parrish
2007-12-20 20:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches



I don't know if anyone else has gotten this solicitation "through" CALSEIA
-- see below. See Sue Katley's explanation of how it appears to have the
imprimatur of CALSEIA. The typos and misspellings, and the general nature of
the solicitation should tip one off that it is a scam.



- Peter



Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President

California Solar Engineering, Inc.

820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065

Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26

peter.parrish at calsolareng.com



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hi Peter,

Happy holidays!

You're right - it did not come from CALSEIA....but....it did come through
CALSEIA. There is a place on the CALSEIA website where someone can generate
an email to a CALSEIA member. This individual apparently used that tool and
sent a number of companies this same message. You can delete it.

Sue

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> Parrish

To: info at calseia.org

Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:33 AM

Subject: RE: Order

I thought you folks would be interested in this inquiry. I assume that it
_did not_ come from CALSEIA! It is written in the tone of a scam (replete
with misspellings and typos).

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com

_____

From: John Barn [mailto:jbsunstore at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:21 AM
To: PETER.PARRISH at CALSOLARENG.COM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Order




The following is a referal from http://calseia.org

Please reply to: jbsunstore at yahoo.com


Name:

John Barn


Email:

jbsunstore at yahoo.com


Subject:

Order


Short Message:

JB SUNSTORE 1507 Wall Street Everett WA USA 98201 Tel:206 337 0942. Dear
Sir, ENQUIRY FOR 120WATTS/12V SOLAR PANEL We would like you to kindly supply
us the price for 8 pieces of your 120watts/12v solar panel lt will further
help if you do advice on availability and lead time of this product. Your
rapid response will be counted on as we are supplying our client this
product as soon as possible. Thanking you in advance for your prompt
response. Sincerely, John Barn Director.



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Nick Houser
2007-12-21 14:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Right on Ezra---having tried dozens of these LED headlamps in every
stage of development, my favorite so far is a new one from Princeton
Tec---4 VERY bright white LED "regulated", tiltable, 3 AAA's
good switch, batteries last a very long time. Lightweight,
even has a flashing mode, (useful in the boat sometimes. Nick in Powell
River.
Post by Ezra Auerbach, DragonSun Consulting
Couldn't live without LED headlamps here. Just about everyone on the
island uses them for everything from getting to the morning boat to
the evening wood shed chores. They are truly a breakthrough in
personal lighting.
Ezra
p.s. good solstice to everyone and a special thanks to Michael W.
Post by Sky Sims
Recently added them to every ones tool pouches. They work great.
Sky Sims
Ecological Systems
www.ecologicalsystems.biz
220 County Road 522
Manalapan, NJ 07726
ph)732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962
-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: LEDs bad? [RE-wrenches]
How many other wrenches use the little LED headband lamps? We were
given some by a client as a gift and within the space of about 2 weeks
they rose to the top of our list of essential gear. Incredibly handy
for working inside power rooms and power panels, even in relatively
good light conditions. Way better in many cases than flashlights and
troublelights consuming a lot more power, often avoiding generator
running. We don't go anywhere without them anymore.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey UT
LEDs may represent one of the most significant electronic technologies
that
we have seen in the past 50 years. No exaggeration.
First they are capable of being used in both the illumination as
well as
indication markets. There _is_ a difference: think of the difference
between
a head light vs a tail light.
Second, they are among the most efficient light sources known
(watts in
vs
lumens out), and this includes CFLs.
Third, they come in a variety of colors, red, amber, green, blue,
violet
as
well as cool and warm white.
Fourth, because they have very short time constants, they can be
strobed
for
even higher effective efficiency.
Fifth, they have truly mind boggling lifetimes, tens of years
Sixth, being solid states devices, they are much more rugged than CFLs
and
of course incandescents.
Pay attention to the occasional "bad news" of course (rust from the
inside
out?!), but LEDs are simply going to take over virtually every
indication
and illumination market there is on the planet.
your
entire car/truck/boat/plane, every home appliance, all industrial and
residential lighting, flashlights, LCD screen backlighting, and
perhaps
eventually stadium flood lights captured by LEDs.
It might be as much fun as watching integrated circuits make their
inexorable into every computation and automation function in our
lives.
- Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
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David Palumbo, Independent Power &amp; Light
2008-01-04 14:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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Travis Creswell
2008-01-04 14:33:04 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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11:29 AM


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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August Goers
2008-01-04 16:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Travis and Wrenches,

Sounds like a neat product. As another option, most of the remote monitoring
products such as Fat Spaniel offer clamp on current transducers to measure
usage. But they can get expensive.

If you want to measure the customer's usage wouldn't you need to put the CTs
on the load side of the panel rather than between the utility meter and load
center?

-August

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Creswell [mailto:tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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No virus found in this incoming message.
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11:29 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:29 AM



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Travis Creswell
2008-01-04 16:55:46 UTC
Permalink
The TED for up to a 200 amp service with CT's, sending unit and display is
less the $150. The computer interface and software is less then $50. It
can be installed in less then 30 minutes. The software looks pretty nifty
but I've not used yet. (I did just order it though)

Of course, you'd have to pay attention to where it was installed in order to
get the information you were looking for.

Best,
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Travis and Wrenches,

Sounds like a neat product. As another option, most of the remote monitoring
products such as Fat Spaniel offer clamp on current transducers to measure
usage. But they can get expensive.

If you want to measure the customer's usage wouldn't you need to put the CTs
on the load side of the panel rather than between the utility meter and load
center?

-August

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Creswell [mailto:tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM



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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008
12:05 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008
12:05 PM



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Travis Creswell
2008-01-04 16:55:46 UTC
Permalink
The TED for up to a 200 amp service with CT's, sending unit and display is
less the $150. The computer interface and software is less then $50. It
can be installed in less then 30 minutes. The software looks pretty nifty
but I've not used yet. (I did just order it though)

Of course, you'd have to pay attention to where it was installed in order to
get the information you were looking for.

Best,
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Travis and Wrenches,

Sounds like a neat product. As another option, most of the remote monitoring
products such as Fat Spaniel offer clamp on current transducers to measure
usage. But they can get expensive.

If you want to measure the customer's usage wouldn't you need to put the CTs
on the load side of the panel rather than between the utility meter and load
center?

-August

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Creswell [mailto:tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com







No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM



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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008
12:05 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008
12:05 PM



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William Miller
2008-01-04 18:58:17 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>


Friends:

I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home. I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates many of the benefits of
this device.

Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From the TED FAQ:

Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.

Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.

Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the exchange.

In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home and I will
offer them to customers.

William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Travis Creswell
2008-01-05 23:33:15 UTC
Permalink
My apology, I should have mentioned that "little" detail. We've mostly used
them for off-gridders so that didn?t even occur to me to mention that don't
read both ways. Good to hear they are coming out with a product to resolve
that issue. Even on the grid tied jobs they provide a tremendous value.

William, you're not implying they are inaccurate, right? I actually found
them to be very accurate especially for a product in that price range. Can
I'll assume what you're saying is they aren't accurately telling the whole
story since they can't read both ways, right?

I'm not following you about installation constraints in the "meter combo". I
suspect we have a different MDP /metering arrangement then you do as I've
always had plenty of room.

Bottom line to me is that it's a "whole house" Kill-A-Watt meter for less
then $150 that can be installed in minutes. I think that a TED or similar
product should be installed for at least 6 months before someone installs
solar. Educational value as it relates to conservation of this type of
device should frequently be staggering.

Keep you head down out there!

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services



-----Original Message-----
From: William Miller [mailto:wrmiller at charter.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:58 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]



Friends:

I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home. I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates many of the benefits of
this device.

Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From the TED FAQ:

Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.

Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.

Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the exchange.

In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home and I will
offer them to customers.

William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008
12:05 PM


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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William Miller
2008-01-05 23:52:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Travis:

As far as I know, the meter is accurate, until you feed backwards through
it. The momentary net reading is probably accurate, but the cumulative
value will be wrong after back feeding.

The sensors are too large to fit in my M/M/Combo panel in the customer
side. Remember, you have the utility side and the customer side all in
14-1/2" of width. Add several dozen leads for branch circuits in the
customer side and there is little room for the CT sensors.

Otherwise, this is a nifty little device. I fear the upgraded unit will be
expensive and delayed....

William
Post by Travis Creswell
My apology, I should have mentioned that "little" detail. We've mostly used
them for off-gridders so that didn't even occur to me to mention that don't
read both ways. Good to hear they are coming out with a product to resolve
that issue. Even on the grid tied jobs they provide a tremendous value.
William, you're not implying they are inaccurate, right? I actually found
them to be very accurate especially for a product in that price range. Can
I'll assume what you're saying is they aren't accurately telling the whole
story since they can't read both ways, right?
I'm not following you about installation constraints in the "meter combo". I
suspect we have a different MDP /metering arrangement then you do as I've
always had plenty of room.
Bottom line to me is that it's a "whole house" Kill-A-Watt meter for less
then $150 that can be installed in minutes. I think that a TED or similar
product should be installed for at least 6 months before someone installs
solar. Educational value as it relates to conservation of this type of
device should frequently be staggering.
Keep you head down out there!
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services
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Jason Lerner
2008-01-06 04:44:54 UTC
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William Miller
2008-01-06 20:39:38 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Jason:

None of these units indicate any application for net metering.

William Miller
Hello All,
Has anyone installed the Power Cost Monitor by Blue Line Innovations. http=
://www.powermeterstore.com/p3982/power_cost_monitor.php
It looks like a simple install, but I wonder if it works.
Thanks Much,
Jason Lerner
Waldron Power and Light Co.
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William Miller
2008-01-06 20:39:38 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Jason:

None of these units indicate any application for net metering.

William Miller
Hello All,
Has anyone installed the Power Cost Monitor by Blue Line Innovations. http=
://www.powermeterstore.com/p3982/power_cost_monitor.php
It looks like a simple install, but I wonder if it works.
Thanks Much,
Jason Lerner
Waldron Power and Light Co.
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William Miller
2008-01-05 23:52:36 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>

Travis:

As far as I know, the meter is accurate, until you feed backwards through
it. The momentary net reading is probably accurate, but the cumulative
value will be wrong after back feeding.

The sensors are too large to fit in my M/M/Combo panel in the customer
side. Remember, you have the utility side and the customer side all in
14-1/2" of width. Add several dozen leads for branch circuits in the
customer side and there is little room for the CT sensors.

Otherwise, this is a nifty little device. I fear the upgraded unit will be
expensive and delayed....

William
Post by Travis Creswell
My apology, I should have mentioned that "little" detail. We've mostly used
them for off-gridders so that didn't even occur to me to mention that don't
read both ways. Good to hear they are coming out with a product to resolve
that issue. Even on the grid tied jobs they provide a tremendous value.
William, you're not implying they are inaccurate, right? I actually found
them to be very accurate especially for a product in that price range. Can
I'll assume what you're saying is they aren't accurately telling the whole
story since they can't read both ways, right?
I'm not following you about installation constraints in the "meter combo". I
suspect we have a different MDP /metering arrangement then you do as I've
always had plenty of room.
Bottom line to me is that it's a "whole house" Kill-A-Watt meter for less
then $150 that can be installed in minutes. I think that a TED or similar
product should be installed for at least 6 months before someone installs
solar. Educational value as it relates to conservation of this type of
device should frequently be staggering.
Keep you head down out there!
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services
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Jason Lerner
2008-01-06 04:44:54 UTC
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Travis Creswell
2008-01-05 23:33:15 UTC
Permalink
My apology, I should have mentioned that "little" detail. We've mostly used
them for off-gridders so that didn?t even occur to me to mention that don't
read both ways. Good to hear they are coming out with a product to resolve
that issue. Even on the grid tied jobs they provide a tremendous value.

William, you're not implying they are inaccurate, right? I actually found
them to be very accurate especially for a product in that price range. Can
I'll assume what you're saying is they aren't accurately telling the whole
story since they can't read both ways, right?

I'm not following you about installation constraints in the "meter combo". I
suspect we have a different MDP /metering arrangement then you do as I've
always had plenty of room.

Bottom line to me is that it's a "whole house" Kill-A-Watt meter for less
then $150 that can be installed in minutes. I think that a TED or similar
product should be installed for at least 6 months before someone installs
solar. Educational value as it relates to conservation of this type of
device should frequently be staggering.

Keep you head down out there!

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services



-----Original Message-----
From: William Miller [mailto:wrmiller at charter.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:58 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]



Friends:

I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home. I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates many of the benefits of
this device.

Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From the TED FAQ:

Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.

Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.

Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the exchange.

In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home and I will
offer them to customers.

William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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12:05 PM


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:46 AM



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August Goers
2008-01-04 16:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Travis and Wrenches,

Sounds like a neat product. As another option, most of the remote monitoring
products such as Fat Spaniel offer clamp on current transducers to measure
usage. But they can get expensive.

If you want to measure the customer's usage wouldn't you need to put the CTs
on the load side of the panel rather than between the utility meter and load
center?

-August

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Creswell [mailto:tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM



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William Miller
2008-01-04 18:58:17 UTC
Permalink
<x-flowed>


Friends:

I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home. I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates many of the benefits of
this device.

Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From the TED FAQ:

Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.

Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.

Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the exchange.

In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home and I will
offer them to customers.

William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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</x-flowed>
Travis Creswell
2008-01-04 14:33:04 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system (Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this issue with new models.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

-----Original Message-----
From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
11:29 AM



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Darryl Thayer
2008-01-04 19:37:03 UTC
Permalink
HI William, and others
I am confused, what you describe has no value in
metrering any thing except simple loads. But what you
want is either net metering or one way metering (a
ratching meter) for use with solar. Lets hope the
5000 has these features.
Darryl
Post by William Miller
I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home.
I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate
information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current
flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid,
the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates
many of the benefits of
this device.
Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back
through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current
sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000
is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this
issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From
Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power
back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not
perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.
Installation was also problematic: In a standard
flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the
customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and
put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have
to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.
Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware,
requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in
making the exchange.
In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept
one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I
hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one
for my home and I will
offer them to customers.
William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might
be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of
these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is
at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system
(Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this
issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
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Erika Weliczko
2008-01-04 19:49:56 UTC
Permalink
I got a TED to see what it was about and be an enginerd at home. I am eager
to try software to see if it logs cummulative beyond the period it has been
plugged in. The display didn't like being on a subpanel to the wires with
the CTs installed.
I see the TED being able to show output of a batteryless inverter (i.e.
one-way current) - instantaneous kW, kWh, dollar value. Darn cool for $150.
Probably not permanent enough for performance-based incentives though.

For two way current flow I am assured that E-mon D-mon has a product to do
this. I plan on using this in an upcoming job to replace two glass kWh
meters that require customer performing math to determine total production
in a battery backup grid interactive system. I will keep you posted.

Peace,
erika

*********************
Ohio License # 44844
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer TM
Certified Home Energy Rater

REpower SOLUTIONS
Visit online: www.repowersolutions.com
Renewable energy and home energy audits
P.O. Box 91992; Cleveland, OH 44101
(c) 216.402.4458; (f) 216.803.6739

-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl Thayer [mailto:daryl_solar at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [SPAM] RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


HI William, and others
I am confused, what you describe has no value in metrering any thing except
simple loads. But what you want is either net metering or one way metering
(a ratching meter) for use with solar. Lets hope the 5000 has these
features.
Darryl
Post by William Miller
I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home.
I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current
flowing out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED
thinks I am buying. This skews the running total and negates many of
the benefits of this device.
Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on
the bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will
isolate the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is
supposed to come out this month and it will purportedly resolve this
issue. There is no mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From
Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid.
Does TED perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net
metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.
Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to
install the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the
sensors on the underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to
remove them. I would not do this for a customer.
Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the
exchange.
In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor
night time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new
model solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home
and I will offer them to customers.
William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might
be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of
these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is
at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system
(Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this
issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
____________________________________________________________________________
________
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David Palumbo, Independent Power &amp; Light
2008-01-04 14:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Wrenches,

We have a net-metered client who wants to add a kWh meter for metering her
house loads. She presently has a standard utility type kWhr meter for the
output of her Sunny Boy inverter in addition to her utility meter. Is there
a reasonable alternative to an in line (between the grid and her load center
panel) utility type kWh meter?

Thanks,

Dave


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Darryl Thayer
2008-01-04 19:37:03 UTC
Permalink
HI William, and others
I am confused, what you describe has no value in
metrering any thing except simple loads. But what you
want is either net metering or one way metering (a
ratching meter) for use with solar. Lets hope the
5000 has these features.
Darryl
Post by William Miller
I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home.
I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate
information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current
flowing in or current flowing
out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid,
the TED thinks I am
buying. This skews the running total and negates
many of the benefits of
this device.
Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back
through a breaker on the
bus, there is no location to install the current
sensors that will isolate
the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000
is supposed to come
out this month and it will purportedly resolve this
issue. There is no
mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From
Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power
back to the grid. Does TED
perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not
perform net metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.
Installation was also problematic: In a standard
flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the
customer side to install
the current sensors. I opened the utility side and
put the sensors on the
underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have
to remove them. I
would not do this for a customer.
Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware,
requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in
making the exchange.
In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept
one to monitor night
time loads. The physical product is well made. I
hope the new model
solves the issue described above. If so, I want one
for my home and I will
offer them to customers.
William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might
be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of
these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is
at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system
(Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this
issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


- - - -
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To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read

List rules & how to change your email address: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
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EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
Erika Weliczko
2008-01-04 19:49:56 UTC
Permalink
I got a TED to see what it was about and be an enginerd at home. I am eager
to try software to see if it logs cummulative beyond the period it has been
plugged in. The display didn't like being on a subpanel to the wires with
the CTs installed.
I see the TED being able to show output of a batteryless inverter (i.e.
one-way current) - instantaneous kW, kWh, dollar value. Darn cool for $150.
Probably not permanent enough for performance-based incentives though.

For two way current flow I am assured that E-mon D-mon has a product to do
this. I plan on using this in an upcoming job to replace two glass kWh
meters that require customer performing math to determine total production
in a battery backup grid interactive system. I will keep you posted.

Peace,
erika

*********************
Ohio License # 44844
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer TM
Certified Home Energy Rater

REpower SOLUTIONS
Visit online: www.repowersolutions.com
Renewable energy and home energy audits
P.O. Box 91992; Cleveland, OH 44101
(c) 216.402.4458; (f) 216.803.6739

-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl Thayer [mailto:daryl_solar at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: [SPAM] RE: kWh Metering [RE-wrenches]


HI William, and others
I am confused, what you describe has no value in metrering any thing except
simple loads. But what you want is either net metering or one way metering
(a ratching meter) for use with solar. Lets hope the 5000 has these
features.
Darryl
Post by William Miller
I ordered several TEDs and installed one at my home.
I had to send most of
them back as they did not provide accurate information. The current
sensors can not differentiate between current flowing in or current
flowing out. During the day, when I am selling to the grid, the TED
thinks I am buying. This skews the running total and negates many of
the benefits of this device.
Since I am-- and most people are-- feeding back through a breaker on
the bus, there is no location to install the current sensors that will
isolate the consumption feed. The good news is the TED 5000 is
supposed to come out this month and it will purportedly resolve this
issue. There is no mention of the TED5000 in the on-line store. From
Q. I have a Photovoltaic System and I send power back to the grid.
Does TED perform net metering? A. No. TED1000 does not perform net
metering.
TED5000 will perform net metering.
Installation was also problematic: In a standard flush mount
meter/main/combo there is not enough room in the customer side to
install the current sensors. I opened the utility side and put the
sensors on the underground feeders, but if I get caught I will have to
remove them. I would not do this for a customer.
Additionally, two of my TEDs came without firmware, requiring an
exchange. The company was prompt and apologetic in making the
exchange.
In summary: The TED interface is great and I kept one to monitor
night time loads. The physical product is well made. I hope the new
model solves the issue described above. If so, I want one for my home
and I will offer them to customers.
William Miller
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html might
be just the ticket.
Cheap and easy to install. We've used a qty of
these and are really
impressed with them. The only trouble I've had is
at my own house where the
local COOP uses a remote meter reading system
(Turtle?) and the read pulse
caused mine fits. They claim to have resolved this
issue with new models.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


- - - -
Hosted by Home Power magazine

To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read

List rules & how to change your email address:
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com


- - - -
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To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read

List rules & how to change your email address: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
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EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
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